phpwiki-talk Mailing List for PhpWiki

Thus spake "Oliver Betz":
> 
> > And we really don't need to persuade others to use it. 
> 
> That seems to be the point. IMO PhpWiki is no more a public supported 
> and used project.
> 
> That's sad.
For the record, the all the things you're saying here sum up why
I gave up on contributing to PhpWiki some years ago.
 
-- 
J.

Hello,
Marc-Etienne Vargenau schrieb:
> I would like to disallow some characters in wiki page names
> (commas that create many problems, e.g. for backlinks
> and page renaming, "<" and">").
This was already in my TODO.
,<> and should really be escaped,
, to easy pagelists, <> for consistency with the file backends.
> I tried in stdlib "function isValid" but it does not seem
> to work (called too late?).
>
> What is the best way to do this?
Hmm, I'll have to try this also.
Probably similar as the file backend does it.
-- 
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.org/ http://murbreak.at/

Oliver Betz schrieb:
> Reini Urban wrote:
>>> There are two developers only, but many users.
>>
>>> I still see no active "community".
>>
>> Yes, as I said, it's not visible here.
>
> where is it visible? Maybe...
Between 50 and 100 messages per month is not so bad.
https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=phpwiki-talk
In the last two years it settled because users went away.
But new features and fixes are still happening in the same pace as before.
>> I'm still presenting phpwiki on various wiki conferences and barcamps,
>> but as Patrick Michaud, the pmwiki developer, we have more to do with
>> our perl compiler projects, Patrick for perl6, me for perl5, besides
>> our real work as knowledge engineers.
>>
>> Marc-Etienne has his users behind the Alcatel-Lucent firewall, my
>> users are behind the AVL firewall. Both are companies with>2500
>> developers.
>
> ...in these two companies? So PhpWiki became a somewhat private
> thing?
It's still open and free. It's still on sourceforge, though sf sucks.
>> I believe Google or Zend have less developers if you want to play the
>> number game.
>
> I don't understand what you want to express here.
>
>>>>> * Many plugins, in my opinion more, better and easier than mediawiki
>>>>> plugins. mediawiki just has easier syntax plugins.
>>>>
>>>> For example? Where are these plugins documented?
>>
>> Every plugin has its help page.
>
> Well, most of them are not really helpful to me, and I guess there
> are other "clueless" users.
>
>> You can e.g. see them at
>> http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/pgsrc/
>> at Help%2F*Plugin
>> Doesn't look too hard to find.
>
> How should the average user guess the SVN path? There is not even a
> link to the SVN repository on the web page.
The average user has his installation or link to the wiki, and does not 
need svn.
> The average user might try to install the "stable" (read: old) or
> "current" version and see the documentation coming with the
> installation files. In this documentation, there are many links to
> the broken sourceforge PhpWiki site.
This is via interwiki links, and the new installations changed Help: to 
Help/
>> Not every applications needs an online demo site.
>
> But it needs much more documentation. The old PhpWiki site had some
> extended documentation, and now it's gone. The "community" has no
> place to add knowledge today.
The community can ask to add to the official docu via email or svn.
Almost every SW development happens like this.
We were just lucky to have a demo on sf.net.
>> We would like to have some demo site online again, but we need a
>> server. Since we are not at the university anymore, rather in big
>> companies we don't have such a server ready.
>
> and the big companies don't want to support the open source project
> they get benefit from? Some server space would be peanuts for them.
Not really. Big companies are different. They rather pay for a 
commercial SW millions than support a cheap open source SW.
My company paid millions for MS Sharepoint Server license, and it still 
has only 10% of the phpwiki features.
They also pay millions for Oracle while a really good and fast database 
would be free.
> [...]
>
>> BTW: All this is no user support.
>> A user would have found it by himself.
>
> I disagree strongly.
>
>> And we really don't need to persuade others to use it.
>
> That seems to be the point. IMO PhpWiki is no more a public supported
> and used project.
The main problem is the server. I don't want to afford one, I asked 
several times, but no one sprang in. So there will be no demo site.
It's also easier to keep it spam-free this way.
> That's sad.
Indeed.
-- 
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.org/ http://murbreak.at/

Reini Urban wrote:
> > There are two developers only, but many users.
> 
> > I still see no active "community".
> 
> Yes, as I said, it's not visible here.
where is it visible? Maybe...
> I'm still presenting phpwiki on various wiki conferences and barcamps,
> but as Patrick Michaud, the pmwiki developer, we have more to do with
> our perl compiler projects, Patrick for perl6, me for perl5, besides
> our real work as knowledge engineers.
> 
> Marc-Etienne has his users behind the Alcatel-Lucent firewall, my
> users are behind the AVL firewall. Both are companies with >2500
> developers.
...in these two companies? So PhpWiki became a somewhat private 
thing?
> I believe Google or Zend have less developers if you want to play the
> number game.
I don't understand what you want to express here.
> >>> * Many plugins, in my opinion more, better and easier than mediawiki
> >>> plugins. mediawiki just has easier syntax plugins.
> >>
> >> For example? Where are these plugins documented?
> 
> Every plugin has its help page.
Well, most of them are not really helpful to me, and I guess there 
are other "clueless" users.
> You can e.g. see them at
> http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/pgsrc/
> at Help%2F*Plugin
> Doesn't look too hard to find.
How should the average user guess the SVN path? There is not even a 
link to the SVN repository on the web page.
The average user might try to install the "stable" (read: old) or 
"current" version and see the documentation coming with the 
installation files. In this documentation, there are many links to 
the broken sourceforge PhpWiki site.
> Not every applications needs an online demo site.
But it needs much more documentation. The old PhpWiki site had some 
extended documentation, and now it's gone. The "community" has no 
place to add knowledge today.
> We would like to have some demo site online again, but we need a
> server. Since we are not at the university anymore, rather in big
> companies we don't have such a server ready. 
and the big companies don't want to support the open source project 
they get benefit from? Some server space would be peanuts for them.
[...]
> BTW: All this is no user support.
> A user would have found it by himself.
I disagree strongly.
> And we really don't need to persuade others to use it. 
That seems to be the point. IMO PhpWiki is no more a public supported 
and used project.
That's sad.
Oliver
-- 
Oliver Betz, Muenchen

rei...@gm... wrote:
[...PmWiki and DokuWiki als alternative...]
note that I did intentionally not mention MediaWiki. It's made for 
Wikipedia and not for general use.
> > > phpwiki has much more features than those two.
I don't think so.
> > Maybe I don't know enough about the PhpWiki features, because I don't
> > know where to look them up. Could you name some important features of
> > PhpWiki not found in PmWiki?
> 
> * All database backends, all php versions, all major operating systems, not 
> just LAMP with php5.
Ack (as I wrote).
> * Many plugins, in my opinion more, better and easier than mediawiki 
> plugins. mediawiki just has easier syntax plugins.
I don't know MediaWiki, but many PhpWiki plugins are simply not 
needed in PmWiki. I see not many plugins providing functionality not 
present in PmWiki. And the documentation of the PhpWiki plugins is 
definitely worse, so I doubt "easier".
> * DynamicIncludePages (IncludePage via Ajax to create tree-like structures 
> loaded on demand)
Can't find useful documentation about this even in SVN.
> * Many login and auth methods, just facebook connect and email verification 
> not yet.
Ack.
> * Moderated pages
The help page says no more than "short description" (as on many other 
help pages). I included <?plugin ModeratedPage ?> in a page and 
didn't notice a difference. So I can't check how it works.
BTW: PmWiki also knows "draft" edits and user permissions to 
"publish".
> * Semantic relations and queries
Reading Help/SemanticRelations, I don't fully understand the 
difference between relation::pagename and attribute:=value. PmWiki 
also knows page text variables and has extensive capabilities to use 
them, e.g. in page lists or conditionals. A very powerful feature.
[...]
> I also prefer the template inheritance, so that it can easily be extended 
> whilst not breaking
> HTML conformity, in contrary to mediawiki.
You might want to have a look at the PmWiki templates.
Oliver
-- 
Oliver Betz, Muenchen

2010年3月30日 Morgan Aldridge <mo...@ma...>:
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Oliver Betz <li...@gm...> wrote:
>>
>> rei...@gm... wrote:
>>
>>> There's no website unfortunately.
>>> Docs are in http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/doc/
>>> at http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/pgsrc/
>>
>> not appropriate IMNSHO.
>
> There are two developers only, but many users.
> I still see no active "community".
Yes, as I said, it's not visible here.
I'm still presenting phpwiki on various wiki conferences and barcamps,
but as Patrick Michaud, the pmwiki developer, we have more to do with
our perl compiler projects, Patrick for perl6, me for perl5, besides
our real work as knowledge engineers.
Marc-Etienne has his users behind the Alcatel-Lucent firewall, my
users are behind the AVL firewall. Both are companies with >2500
developers.
I believe Google or Zend have less developers if you want to play the
number game.
>>> * Many plugins, in my opinion more, better and easier than mediawiki
>>> plugins. mediawiki just has easier syntax plugins.
>>
>> For example? Where are these plugins documented?
Every plugin has its help page.
You can e.g. see them at
http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/pgsrc/
at Help%2F*Plugin
Doesn't look too hard to find.
> I have to agree, I found it very unprofessional and off-putting that
> there's no website with documentation, esp. not one running on your
> own software!
Install it and browse the Help esp. for the plugins
Not every applications needs an online demo site. We would like to
have some demo site online again, but we need a server. Since we are
not at the university anymore,
rather in big companies we don't have such a server ready.
> I inherited a very old install of PhpWiki that I couldn't easily
> migrate to a newer version and it didn't survive a required upgrade to
> PHP 5. I did get a little support here at the time, but responses were
> extremely slow since the community is so small. And without even basic
> documentation, I had little interest in pursuing the project.
>
> Someday I'll get an old copy of apache & PHP running so I can try to
> recover all the data in it, but it's really a shame.
>
> Morgan
BTW: All this is no user support.
A user would have found it by himself. And we really don't need to
persuade others to use it.
Install it, try it out, through it away. You are free.

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Oliver Betz <li...@gm...> wrote:
>
> rei...@gm... wrote:
>
>> There's no website unfortunately.
>> Docs are in http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/doc/
>> at http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/pgsrc/
>
> not appropriate IMNSHO.
[snip]
>> * Many plugins, in my opinion more, better and easier than mediawiki
>> plugins. mediawiki just has easier syntax plugins.
>
> For example? Where are these plugins documented?
I have to agree, I found it very unprofessional and off-putting that
there's no website with documentation, esp. not one running on your
own software!
I inherited a very old install of PhpWiki that I couldn't easily
migrate to a newer version and it didn't survive a required upgrade to
PHP 5. I did get a little support here at the time, but responses were
extremely slow since the community is so small. And without even basic
documentation, I had little interest in pursuing the project.
Someday I'll get an old copy of apache & PHP running so I can try to
recover all the data in it, but it's really a shame.
Morgan
---
http://www.makkintosshu.com/

rei...@gm... wrote:
> > > sf.net is not being maintained actively.
> > so where is a meaningful PhpWiki website, documentation, community?
> 
> There's no website unfortunately.
> Docs are in http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/doc/
> at http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/pgsrc/
not appropriate IMNSHO.
> > This list has transported 60 Messages in the past 12 months - one
> > message every six days... I counted some four developers and ten
> > "other" users.
> 
> There are two developers only, but many users.
I still see no active "community".
[...]
> > > phpwiki has much more features than those two.
> > Maybe I don't know enough about the PhpWiki features, because I don't
> > know where to look them up. Could you name some important features of
> > PhpWiki not found in PmWiki?
> 
> * All database backends, all php versions, all major operating systems, not 
> just LAMP with php5.
PmWiki doesn't require LAMP or even PHP5.
> * Many plugins, in my opinion more, better and easier than mediawiki 
> plugins. mediawiki just has easier syntax plugins.
For example? Where are these plugins documented?
> * DynamicIncludePages (IncludePage via Ajax to create tree-like structures 
> loaded on demand)
Interesting - where can I read more about this?
> * Many login and auth methods, just facebook connect and email verification 
> not yet.
Ack.
> * Moderated pages
?
> * Semantic relations and queries
What's this? Where can I read more?
> In contrary to pmwiki's and dokuwiki's design principle: Avoid gratuitous 
> features (or "creeping featurism")
Ack, the PmWiki core (240kBytes) has no featurism. There are many 
extensions, but you can do many things with core functionality.
> we extend it is much as possible with creeping featurism.
So you consider creeping featurism in the core good?
> I also prefer the template inheritance, so that it can easily be extended 
Don't know about "template inheritance" - where can I read more?
Oliver
-- 
Oliver Betz, Muenchen

Am 30.03.2010 10:29 schrieb Oliver Betz <li...@gm...>:
> Reini Urban wrote:
> > sf.net is not being maintained actively.
> so where is a meaningful PhpWiki website, documentation, community?
There's no website unfortunately.
Docs are in http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/doc/
at http://phpwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/phpwiki/trunk/pgsrc/
> This list has transported 60 Messages in the past 12 months - one
> message every six days... I counted some four developers and ten
> "other" users.
There are two developers only, but many users.
Most are behind firewalls, in big cooperate intranet's with thousands of 
users,
well-integrated in larger systems, such as gforge or xapian search.
> > > there are better supported Wikis out there. Even the demo site
> > > http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/ is broken since years.
> > because phpwiki does not run on this setup and we do not have a shell
> > account anymore..
> > > I switched to PmWiki for active sites but I have still a PhpWiki
> > > running with unmaintained content. I'm just too lazy to convert it,
> > > but at least I listen here to learn about upcoming problems (eg PHP
> > > incompatibilities or security issues).
> > phpwiki has much more features than those two.
> Maybe I don't know enough about the PhpWiki features, because I don't
> know where to look them up. Could you name some important features of
> PhpWiki not found in PmWiki?
* All database backends, all php versions, all major operating systems, not 
just LAMP with php5.
* Many plugins, in my opinion more, better and easier than mediawiki 
plugins. mediawiki just has easier syntax plugins.
* DynamicIncludePages (IncludePage via Ajax to create tree-like structures 
loaded on demand)
* Many login and auth methods, just facebook connect and email verification 
not yet.
* Moderated pages
* Semantic relations and queries
In contrary to pmwiki's and dokuwiki's design principle: Avoid gratuitous 
features (or "creeping featurism")
we extend it is much as possible with creeping featurism.
I also prefer the template inheritance, so that it can easily be extended 
whilst not breaking
HTML conformity, in contrary to mediawiki.
> I know
> * PhpWiki has more database backends,
> * can show diffs between arbitrary revisions
> what am I missing?

Reini Urban wrote:
[...]
> > 1.3 is "current".
> 
> yes,
> current svn even contains the 1.4 release candidate.
> there are just cosmetic changes, a new better sidebar theme, missing.
> 
> >> Is this even a supported application. It's hard to tell from the stuff
> >> I've found on the web. I found this
> 
> sf.net is not being maintained actively.
so where is a meaningful PhpWiki website, documentation, community?
This list has transported 60 Messages in the past 12 months - one 
message every six days... I counted some four developers and ten 
"other" users.
> > there are better supported Wikis out there. Even the demo site
> > http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/ is broken since years.
> 
> because phpwiki does not run on this setup and we do not have a shell
> account anymore..
> 
> > I switched to PmWiki for active sites but I have still a PhpWiki
> > running with unmaintained content. I'm just too lazy to convert it,
> > but at least I listen here to learn about upcoming problems (e.g. PHP
> > incompatibilities or security issues).
> 
> phpwiki has much more features than those two.
Maybe I don't know enough about the PhpWiki features, because I don't 
know where to look them up. Could you name some important features of 
PhpWiki not found in PmWiki?
I know
* PhpWiki has more database backends,
* can show diffs between arbitrary revisions
what am I missing?
Oliver
-- 
Oliver Betz, Muenchen

2010年3月29日 Oliver Betz <li...@gm...>:
> Thompson, Steve wrote:
>
>> I've just installed PhpWiki and I like the simplicity. It's version
>> 1.2.11 - do I have the most recent?
>
> that's the most recent so called "stable" version, but it's outdated
> afaik.
1.2 is not being improved, yes. stable and fast as a rock.
but no features at all compared to 1.3
> 1.3 is "current".
yes,
current svn even contains the 1.4 release candidate.
there are just cosmetic changes, a new better sidebar theme, missing.
>> Is this even a supported application. It's hard to tell from the stuff
>> I've found on the web. I found this
sf.net is not being maintained actively.
> there are better supported Wikis out there. Even the demo site
> http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/ is broken since years.
because phpwiki does not run on this setup and we do not have a shell
account anymore..
> I switched to PmWiki for active sites but I have still a PhpWiki
> running with unmaintained content. I'm just too lazy to convert it,
> but at least I listen here to learn about upcoming problems (e.g. PHP
> incompatibilities or security issues).
phpwiki has much more features than those two.
> You might have a look at DokuWiki, too. Somewhat different goals than
> PmWiki's.
You cannot really compare apples with trees.
-- 
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.org/ http://murbreak.at/

Thompson, Steve wrote:
> I've just installed PhpWiki and I like the simplicity. It's version
> 1.2.11 - do I have the most recent? 
that's the most recent so called "stable" version, but it's outdated 
afaik.
1.3 is "current".
> Is this even a supported application. It's hard to tell from the stuff
> I've found on the web. I found this 
there are better supported Wikis out there. Even the demo site 
http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/ is broken since years. 
I switched to PmWiki for active sites but I have still a PhpWiki 
running with unmaintained content. I'm just too lazy to convert it, 
but at least I listen here to learn about upcoming problems (e.g. PHP 
incompatibilities or security issues).
You might have a look at DokuWiki, too. Somewhat different goals than 
PmWiki's.
Oliver
-- 
Oliver Betz, Muenchen

Hi,
I've just installed PhpWiki and I like the simplicity. It's version 1.2.11 - do I have the most recent?
Is this even a supported application. It's hard to tell from the stuff I've found on the web. I found this
http://wiki.bic.mni.mcgill.ca/index.php/PhpWikiDocumentation
but it does not seem to refer to the product I have intstalled. It's a phpwiki but looks a lot better than mine. How is that done?
Steve T