Talk:Trademark practices discussion

I'll see if I can fix it. PiRSquared17 (talk) 01:17, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Thank you! Your help is much appreciated. :) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 01:24, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

This is too long to fix, basically just think of what you would like to see as a translator. For example, why do we ask for translations of a bunch of links? Do we expect people to link to translated documents, if they exist, or to just copy the links? Meh. PiRSquared17 (talk) 03:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

I was not aware that you could turn the translate extension on and off within the document. Alas, I haven't much experience with it. :) Seeing how you and User:Kaganer have done that will be helpful for next time I am required to try. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 10:41, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Sorry if I have missed the point while reading.I have seen occurances of Wikipedia logos being used in news reports specially print media and also at times news report prepared by community.What is or what should be the policy ?

Mahitgar (He who knows ,wants to know and and loves to keep others informed) (talk) 03:15, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Thanks for your comment. The use of logos in news reports is generally fair use and our current trademark policy and practice do not interfere with it. However, given that this is a very important fair use, we would like to clarify our policy on this.

[As always, our comments are not legal advice. We explain why they aren't here.] YWelinder (WMF) (talk) 18:26, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Sorry if it is already discussed and mentioned.What is the policy on use in personal blogs,facebook pages etc. by community members ?

Mahitgar (He who knows ,wants to know and and loves to keep others informed) (talk) 03:18, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

This is another point that could be clarified in our policy. We would love to get the community’s thoughts on this. YWelinder (WMF) (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

This is an important question (and a good question), yes it should be clarified.

My opinion is that logo usage on user’s blogs, even "unknown users" (such as http://wikirigoler.over-blog.com/ which is on planet.wikimedia.org) should be OK, but that we should limit that. --ArséniureDeGallium (talk) 20:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

• More specifically than "use in" such media, what about use as an online identity in such media, i.e. use of a Wikimedia wordmark/trademark as the name/icon that identifies/signifies a person or account? I think it is problematic when someone thereby effectively says "I am <name of Wikimedia project> and this is what I think"; moreso when ubiquitous features such as "like", "friend", etc. effectively say <name of Wikimedia project> endorses something. (Cf. discussion at English Wikiquote of some well-intentioned uses of the Wikiquote name and logo on GoodReadsTM and aNobiiTM.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

The use of Wikimedia trademarks in a manner that violates, or encourages violation of, community policy should be disallowed. I'm thinking of a company that links to a spam Wikipedia page they created, passing it off as their e.g. "Wikipedia profile". MER-C (talk) 04:04, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

One of my main concerns is that Wikimedia should stop using copyright law in addition to trademark law for its logos. An organization whose mission is to encourage production of free content should not make its own logos nonfree; this seems a bit hypocritical. Commons could get rid of its only allowed nonfree files. I don't think most organizations with logos tagged as PD-textlogo on Commons have enormous problems enforcing their trademarks, just because they aren't copyrighted - and in the case of many Wikimedia logos, it would be possible to license them under a Creative Commons by(-sa) or GFDL or Free Art license, which is still more restrictive than the public domain. Darkweasel94 (talk) 06:29, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

I concur with this. It's difficult to explain why there are non-free medias on commons while we ask people to upload only free medias ; even more when these non-free medias are those of the foundation.

Best regards — Arkanosis ^✉ 10:14, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Hello,

The current policy states that "you cannot have or use [high-resolution copies of Wikimedia Marks]. If you've a very good reason to seek an exception to the rule against having and using high-resolution copies of Wikimedia Marks please contact the Wikimedia Foundation for permission to use those logos".

I don't see the point of this restriction and I wonder if it's still relevant anyway now that we're using SVG everywhere...

Best regards — Arkanosis ^✉ 10:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Can't we say that trademark is based on the completly irrelevant and irrealistic willing to have an unilateral despotic control on some symbol, a concept branded as "image protection", using ego/narcissistic fallacies to argue, and threat/coercion to impose its observance?

As far as I know, the widest used symbols, like yin and yang, various crosses, the peace symbol^[1] , etc., have no trademark, and still communicate a clear message. Sure you can have ambiguities with several meaning branded with the same symbol, but this is resolved with context as easily as it is with any homonymous.

Of course some people may try to abuse others using well known symbols, but this is not something trademark will prevent efficiently. One may go as far as using a "close but not the same" symbol, computing how much that may cost to go in court and how much profit this may generate and go with it as long as chances are great to end with a positive financial state through usurpation.

You don't protect people and social movements by inforcing brand. Maybe inforcing production standards can help. But definitively what people need is ways to make accurate interpretation by themselves. They don't need to be infantilized with "real source of truth" that they may blindly trust just because there's some logo on it.

Oh, well, I guess I'm just losing my time throwing words that will have no significant impact, but as this thread become longer and longer, I can't resist anymore to give my (probably uninteresting) point of view.

People should always remain free to use the symbols and words that they want to express themselves, as well as the next personn should be able to criticise how they use it. Asking to be able to control symbols/words usage, is implicitely sending the message that you agree with some kind of censorship practices. You may think that all that is pure theorical misbehaviour, but trademark is already actively used as a censorship tool, here are some relevant link on the topic:

• Trademarks: the good, the bad and the ugly
• Chilling Effects: Weather Reports
  • (French) Marques déposées : le bon, la brute et le truand, par Cory Doctorow (+ Calimaq)
• (French) fr:Milka contre Kraft Foods
• (French) Madame Figaro se fait censurer son blog scolaire par le groupe Figaro

Just like with copyright and patents, the free/libre culture faces the problematic of living in a society where the monopoly paradigm is the legal foundation which need to be hacked in order to grow. Copyright is a bit less problematic in the sense that you don't need to pay a tithe to obtain it, but patent and trademark are more vicious as you can't protect from them without feeding its institutions, which thus reinforce their credibility and power, a banal vicious circle.

So maybe we have no other choice no better choice than trademark to avoid someone else making the trademark and sue the foundation, but let's not fall in a control freak behaviour, for the sake of free/libre arts and cultures.

Psychoslave (talk) 10:20, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Salut Psychoslave. Tu as complètement tort. Amitiés. --ArséniureDeGallium (talk) 20:19, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Bah, je dis mon ressenti, après je me doute qu’il ne fera pas l’unanimité, loin de là. Aller, je retourne à des contributions plus intéressantes. :) --Psychoslave (talk) 14:42, 5 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Unlike copyrights and patents, trademarks are not a bad thing in any way. They serve to prevent confusion, not to restrict people from creating and innovating. All that could result from someone else calling their own non-Wikimedia site "Wikipedia" is confusion - that has no good effects at all. Darkweasel94 (talk) 13:37, 5 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

I don't agree, but won't waste time complaining. Read the pointed articles, make your opinion. No one may agree, it's still my feelings. Feedback was asked, I gave some. Now I will just move along, there are plenty of useful contributions waiting for me. --Psychoslave (talk) 14:42, 5 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

• "the widest used symbols, like yin and yang, various crosses, the peace symbol [...] still communicate a clear message". I wonder how the Buddhists whose imagery include the Swastika would feel about that assertion post-1934 or so. (Hi, Mike!) MPelletier (WMF) (talk) 17:48, 5 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

On my first skimming of the main page here, I think part of a solution may be to delegate to local Chapters the right to give their local partners (GLAM & the likes) user-rights for WMF- trademarks ( I Will use the word "Logo" ). It will not simplify the English language group's work completely, but take off some of the load. If legally neccesary, someone(s) on the Chapter-boards may be earmarked to be "Logo-protectors".

In Norway this practise works reasonably well from government down (although politicians seem to have a heavy hand in the appointments of members), so at least here it is a legally accepted way of handling quite big money.

Of course the rules governing use logos must be as clear as possible before delegating. One probably needs a popular version as first defense, with a legalese addendum so as to cover both sides of the coin.

Periodical reports and available lists of who/who-why not and "What to do if you suspect abuse" ought to be available for anyone in an easy way. WP is a croud-source-project and can make use of such factors - only it must be made known in places to be of use. Maybe it could be part of the bottom lines under the "Edit-box"? Just something like: Found someone misrepresening us? Click here.

Best regards from --Bjørn som tegner (talk) 11:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

PS. I think the logos are worth defending, even if I have some sympathy for the above points of view. Bst

I've done a QRcode project at the en:Congressional Cemetery and plan to do a couple similar things and very much like the idea of a low-key friction-free way to do this. The inclusion of "from Wikipedia" on the codes satisfies almost everything I want. It is just the polite thing to do for the reader, seems to be legally pristine, and is fairly explicitly allowed under the current rules. I hope any changes in the rules would not in any way make this more complicated. Still I checked with WMF legal (and got a pretty quick positive response-thanks); and I would have liked a typeface or some other way that would more directly say "This is from Wikipedia" (still "from Wikipedia" is pretty direct!).

I've seen a couple of bigger QRpedia projects wrestle with this problem at length and wondered why. Probably with a bigger project you need a sponsor who wants something fancier and "more solid." A couple of suggestions:

• QRcodes have redundancy built-in, which means you can print something over them, e.g. a stylized W. (this would take some work). It's likely that the overlay could be trademarked.
• A low-friction version of the WikipediA wordmark on the side would be nice, perhaps with a small "from" above or "content" below. This could be something slightly different that the current wordmark, e.g in Italics or with a white W in a black box to start it off.
• "from Wikipedia" or "Wikipedia content" might add to the legal protection of the trademark - we'd only likely object to the use if it wasn't linked to Wikipedia content, so I'd guess that if the poster is lying they'd have a harder time in court.
• "Low-friction" could mean something as simple as having a page on meta or en:WP, where a few rules are stated, e.g. the proposer/editor must have more than 1,000 edits and declare any conflict of interest, and then have another qualified editor sign off on it.

Please, just keep it simple.

Smallbones (talk) 14:33, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

BTW - do we have one of those "follow me boxes" used by facebook, twitter, pinterest, etc. see example that offer quick links from very many webpages? I've never seen a Wikipedia one, and would think it would be a useful way for a site to quickly link to an article on them. Is there a copyright or trademark issue with these? Smallbones (talk) 15:25, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

I support the idea of specifically adding guidance for the new types of organizations and clarifying certain use-cases in general. I would like the policy to have clear guidance on some typical use cases as presentations (e.g. teaching what Wikipedia is, or an editing event with Powerpoint slides), meetups and celebrations (e.g. use on leaflets, cakes, banners in sitenotice) or conferences.

I fear that the low number of community requests from licencing may be caused by either the fact that the policy is not well known, or that those who know about it are afraid to use the trademarks but for some reason do not approach the legal team for clarification. The new policy should be made in a way to cover concisely and in an easy to understand manner the common use cases, and encourage the readers to get in touch with the legal team - perhaps by providing a sample letter of request or a template letter with the appropriate language and some space for the details of the proposed use. –Bence (talk) 21:10, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

These are all excellent examples of use cases that we would like our policy to anticipate. We are also thinking about how we can make the trademark request process as frictionless as possible. A template letter may be one solution. It could also be an online form for requests. We really appreciate your thoughts on this. YWelinder (WMF) (talk) 17:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Thanks for the opportunity to respond. I think it would be helpful to have a lot of examples on a FAQ indicating when it's ok to use a trademarked symbol, when it's clearly not ok, and when it's questionable (and what can be done to make sure the use does not go over the fence to clearly not ok). For example, I'm giving a PowerPower presentation about Wikipedia in a few weeks and I'd like to use the symbol in a slide or two. But then I'd like to make the presentation available to all. What about other kinds of dissemination: dissertations, posters, flyers, publicity for a local chapter, articles in various kinds of periodicals (i.e. for-profit or academic or other). Perhaps the circumstances are too broad but it would be helpful to have some examples to know when use of the symbols is ok or problematic. -- Kosboot (talk) 22:16, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Some of these dissemination types will be covered by fair use while others may require prior trademark approval. You can read more about fair use under trademark law here. Specifying this in FAQs is a great idea. We would love to hear more examples of specific use cases that we could cover in FAQs. YWelinder (WMF) (talk) 17:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

I am quite fond of the current Meta logo and the idea that it represents the community in a detached way from the Wikimedia logo which is understandably well protected. In that regard, I find it unfortunate if it is prevented serving this purpose for its similarity in colour to the Wikimedia logo. The current use of the logo and its many variants suggest that people are quite attached to the colour scheme, but less so with the globe in the middle, and these colors seem to have grown to represent the movement. Not sure if there is any good solution consistent with trademark law, but I would be sad to give up the current logo.--Bence (talk) 21:23, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

Oppose I am wary of creating another logo. We already have a community logo - it's the jigsaw globe. It was created by the community and has become famous due to the efforts of the community. We don't need another 'community' logo; WMF legal need to figure a way to enable frictionless use of this logo. Filceolaire (talk) 14:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC) Reply

The Jigsaw globe only represents the Wikipedia community. The Meta logo represents the Wikimedia community, the WMF logo represents their organization. (all trademarked, of course) PiRSquared17 (talk) 15:11, 5 June 2013 (UTC) Reply