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Requests for comment/Interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing to decrease impersonation/Discussion

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[1] I didn't know it was this blatant (in terms of selling their services/souls if they have any)...agree w/ above proposal--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:30, 2 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

That page used to say that "Andrew C." was an admin. There is an editor here who used to be an admin by that name but I think this upworks account is just impersonating the person as they say this is not them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:38, 2 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

This should be an RFC, not a Meta RFC, no? --MF-W 14:17, 3 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Thanks Excellent point and will move. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:40, 3 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

The first of your two examples is a dead account; the second is a sign-in page. {also, to emit valid and accessible HTML markup, please only indent your first reply, to any uninedented comment, with one colon]. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:59, 13 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Ah cool. Good to see upworks finally took down the account that appears to have been pretending to be an admin on EN WP. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
  • What does interlinking mean exactly? Can you show us an example of a profile which is interlinked in this manner? Gamaliel (talk) 17:21, 13 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
  • On first reading this seems to say that they link in the advertisement to their user page here. While the current wording might do it, if there are other concerns about wording, I'll suggest:

In order to enforce the Terms of Use prohibition on impersonation, we require those involved with paid editing on any WMF project to link on their user page to all active accounts through which they advertise paid Wikipedia editing services, or use to respond to such ads. In the ads themselves, and in responses to such ads, the editor should link to his user page on the WMF project where he is most active.

Note that this is not regulating the content of other websites, only regulating the actions of Wiki users who wish to make paid edits here. Smallbones (talk) 18:20, 13 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Would be happy with that wording aswell. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:41, 13 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
James, would you be open to wording that takes into account that some local projects do not require disclosure of paid status (Commons for one). Perhaps something like On projects where disclosure of paid status is required to comply with the terms of use. might fix it. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:16, 13 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Commons TOU redirects to the meta TOU.[2] Were does it say that commons does not require disclosure of paid editing? We still want to prevent impersonation of commons editors. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:44, 13 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Commons has a alternate disclosure policy at commons:Commons:Paid contribution disclosure policy it is listed at Alternative paid contribution disclosure policies. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:54, 13 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
While we do say "on Wikipedia" and Commons is not a Wikipedia. While Commons has a policy on disclosure not being needed for paid editors I would imagine they would be against impersonation. But agree at this point we should leave them out. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
For the moment, The Wikimedia Commons community does not require any disclosure of paid contributions from its contributors. But that may change in the future now that the Wikipedia community is waking up to the problems caused by undisclosed paid editing. Wikimedia Commons could, for example, just require disclosure and set no other restrictions. We should start with Wikipedia and remain flexible enough so that other projects can jump on the band wagon at any time. GastelEtzwane (talk) 21:55, 13 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Yes, but this would be a global policy. I'm all for stricter policies on paid editing, but we shouldn't be writing a global policy only for Wikipedias. Keeping it broad by making it apply to all WMF wikis that require disclosure would make it so that if Commons decided to require disclosure in the future, they would automatically have this policy if they made the switch. I think that is a positive thing that also allows local communities to decide how to deal with this issue if they want to. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:17, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Wikimedia Foundation itself are using Upwork. How do you plan to handle that? How do you plan to verify that some people have a legitimate use of an account on Upwork? How will you try to figure out who do paid editing and who tries to help people? How do you plan to connect an user account "wild-rabits" on Wikipedia with an account on Upwork? Are you Harry Potter with a magic crystal ball? Yes I see the problem with Upwork, there are a lot of people there crying about help with their pages. Rather than going after those that help them at Upwork, try to make a working community at Wikipedia that help them! — Jeblad 00:06, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
They are NOT offering to edit Wikipedia for pay. Two things are required (1) The account on Upworks needs to be offering to edit Wikipedia for pay (2) There needs to be no link from WP to the Upwork account in question. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:30, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
How shall you be able to connect the dots? How shall anyone at Wikipedia be able to make such a claim on another site? It is not illegal to say that someone do some kind of work, but by your proposal someone shall make claims about impersonations at Upwork because the page at Upwork say they are wikipedians? If I say I am "Doc James" then I impersonates you. I do not impersonate you by saying I am a doctor. — Jeblad 01:22, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Is it illegal to pretend one is someone else? I am not sure but regardless it is against our terms of use. People are claiming that they are specific Wikipedians not just generic Wikipedian. They also claim they are Wikipedians in good standing when they are not and thus misleading their customers. We get a lot of complaints about this via OTRS. This is like people pretending they are medical doctors when they are not (that I do know is illegal by the way). Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:35, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
(aside) It is illegal to take money under false pretenses, e.g. a false name. It's called fraud. Of course, if you can deliver on *all* your promises, nobody might care what your name is. As a practical matter, almost all undeclared paid editors are claiming to do something that they can't do - create or edit an article according to our rules. Smallbones (talk) 04:07, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Feel free to prove it wrong that anybody can create an account and start editing at Wikipedia. — Jeblad 13:25, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
No, it is not illegal to pretend you are neither doctor or medical doctor. Both are illegal in some jurisdictions. The world is slightly bigger than wherever you are at any given time. To many errors, I will not waste more time on this. — Jeblad 01:48, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Why can't an user being impersonated just request the other account to be taken down himself if they use their username? Amqui (talk) 03:09, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Often sites like Fivver want proof that the account on their system is impersonating you. Or what if the account is impersonating a no longer active admin (which we have had)? Most people do not know how to determine if a WP account is active or not. It took a few years of reporting to get Upworks to take down an account impersonating a mostly retired admin. With this I will be able to say "this admin account did not link to this Upworks account offering to edit Wikipedia for pay, as we require this this account is impersonating this person and in breach of both of our rules" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:17, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
How is a user even supposed to know if he's being impersonated? Kudpung (talk) 11:06, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Agree that is another issue. If I came across someone impersonating you and you do not have email turned I, I used to have no way of letting you know. Know we explicitly allow the posting of job ads so things are better. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:39, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

The Upwork profile linked above is set to private so I don't see much information besides a name, a title "Senior Wiki Editor", a requested pay of 50$/h a location and this Youtube video. So, I don't see any claim that this person is claiming to be a specific Wikipedian. Maybe there is a screenshot documenting that? Could you share it? --CristianCantoro (talk) 11:11, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

The other profile of someone impersonating a retired admin has finally been taken down after a number of reports (more than three) over a few years. The take down was in the last few days. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:32, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
  • @Doc James: Can you provide more details on opening up official channels to deal with this through Upwork that you eluded to here. That would appear to be a considerably more precise route to deal with the problem of impersonation and if they are happy to work with us, we wouldn't need this proposal in the first place. Obviously there are the other sites, but I think upwork is our main source of problems. If sites are completely unreceptive to us reporting problematic users then this proposal would also be unenforceable. Smartse (talk) 16:32, 14 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

I have a lot of time for people trying to stop paid editing. But this makes it nearly impossible for anyone to try and engage in paid editing while still meeting the rules. This is not simply a request to link off-wiki accounts to on-wiki, but to link personal information, including real names, occupations, education and biographies, to on-wiki accounts. This was not the intent of the changes of the ToU, and goes far further than anything that has been supported on en.wiki in the past. We don't even ask this of checkusers or arbcom members.

I am not aware of more than a couple of current en-wiki paid editors who operate within the ToU. We've created an environment where it is far easier and more effective to ignore the ToU in order to engage in paid editing, and almost every editor that I've seen who tried to follow the terms has ended up surrendering and just ignoring the rules. Almost none of them stopped paid editing - they just stopped editing openly. Adding a burden this great on paid editors who want to follow the rules will almost certainly ensure that the only paid editors we have will be those that either are new, and therefore don't know what to do, or those that are choosing to hide what they do. We won't stop paid editing, but we will stop people from doing so openly, making it very difficult to manage the problem. - Bilby (talk) 08:00, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Bilby, you should try spending an hour or two at NPP. Those who do it openly are only the tip of a large iceberg. Probably 99% of it is underground anyway. At least 20% of the new articles which are so correct we can't delete, have all the hallmarks of paid (or salaried) editing. The only way to stop it would be to ban it altogether and be more systematic in sorting those obvious paid pages. Unfortunately, paid editors of the kind who advertise their services or subscribe to job agencies have exploited our 'declared paid editing policy' to be a licence to practice - like having passed a bar exam or putting the yearly state road tax sticker on the car windshield. Kudpung (talk) 08:54, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
The community has never supported a total ban on paid editing - there was so much reluctance to provide any limitation, that it took an RFC off en.wiki to get any action through with the disclosure requirements. But even if they did, banning all paid editing doesn't help - all it does it make it invisible. We cannot stop paid editing, as the desire for companies and others to have pages is too great, and they'll keep paying people to do it whatever happens. We should be trying to manage the process, not ban it, but the environment we've created makes that incredibly difficult. Placing nigh-impossible demands on those who try to engage under our rules only makes it that much easier for those who refuse to follow the rules to profit. Which is why we're in the current position - as you say, 99% is underground, but killing the last vestiges of editors willing to meet the disclosure requirements will only have the effect of making 100% underground, most of which will continue to be undetectable. What we need is to make disclosure and editing within our rules more appealing rather than less. - Bilby (talk) 09:19, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Of course you'll never get paid editing banned completely - every RfC is populated by hundreds of paid editors and others who don't seem to mind dedicating their free time so that others can make money out of it. A few more years and it will be all paid editors masquerading as volunteers. It's happening already (proven) - some of them have got Autopatroled and New Page Reviewer rights, and even OTRS access. We don't know the names of the admins - yet. Kudpung (talk) 09:29, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Which is my point. If you can't stop it, you need to focus on management. We're going the other way - neither stopping it, nor managing it, but making it progressively harder for editors to edit for pay in an ethical and open manner, and making it substantially more effective and rewarding to engage in undisclosed, hidden and unethical paid editing. - Bilby (talk) 11:27, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
And this is about managing it. This will also result in removing some of those who do not disclose to make it more worth will to disclose. By the way you do not seriously think that most of the details on sites like Upworks are true do you? People make much of it up. Some use real names but they are no their own, same with pictures, etc. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:03, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Bilby, as Doc James says, this is about managing it. But perhaps not in the way you would prefer - FWIW there are no ethics or deontological honesty whatsoever in people exploiting for money a project that has been built on good will and voluntary work by others. Kudpung (talk) 12:15, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Doc James, the sort of person who writes a fake profile on Upwork is not the sort of person willing to disclose on Wikipedia. This targets those willing to do the right thing, and will have almost no effect on those who aren't. What it will do is force those people engaged in paid editing openly to publicly reveal more personal details than we ask any other editor to reveal, no matter what their responsibilities on Wikipedia are. We will demand more of them than Checkusers, OTRS, Arbcom, or pretty much any editor. And in return they get to have their edits targeted. Why do you think this is more appealing than simply using socks and never disclosing that you are being paid? Given a choice between revealing personal information and opening yourself up as a target, and just using throwaway accounts, the throwaway accounts is the far more profitable stance.
Kudpung, this is why we can't manage paid editors - the idea that there is no means through which they can act ethically on Wikipedia forces them to engage in deceit, rather than trying to act within policy. But whatever your views, those do not match the consensus on Wikipedia. - Bilby (talk) 12:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
But they are the type of person who is happy to impersonate an established Wikipedia, which from my experience make up a significant proportion of undisclosed paid editors. Once again we are talking about preventing harassment of established Wikipedia and improving the situation for those who disclose paid editing (by limiting their unethical colleagues). If we do nothing about "non disclose" why would those on the ethical edge disclose? I think we can all agree that asking nicely has not worked.
With respect to personal information on Upworks, it appears you have not looked much at that website. There is very very little personal information about those buying and selling jobs. Typically no more than one finds on Wikipedia. People do not say who they are, just what they are willing to do (like edit Wikipedia for pay). Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:00, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
You are asking all paid editors to link to their profiles. Those who are impersonating established editors won't be the ones outing themselves by providing the links. Those willing to try and work within policy will be the ones forced to reveal their personal details. The only outcome of this proposal will be to further reduce the percentage of paid editors willing to try and work within policy.
As to the personal information, surely you know better than that. A typical Upwork profile contains the person's real name, photo, region (city and country) where they live, a short biography, education levels and where they attended, employment history and any other experience, along with a link to every Upwork job they have ever taken. This is not "very little personal information", and is certainly more than what one finds on Wikipedia. I'm not sure why you would say otherwise, especially given that you've seen these profiles before. - Bilby (talk) 13:16, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
There is typically little to no personal data on Upworks. This will allow us to have the impersonators accounts removed. This will give a significant boost to those willing to work within policy as their accounts will remain on Upworks while those who do not will likely be removed or will need to hide the type of work they do.
There is no evidence that these are peoples actual pictures, there is no evidence they are from were they say they are. All that is likely true is that they will do Wikipedia editing and that is all those who hire them care about. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:32, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
a) Your statement "there is typically little to no personal data on Upworks" is clearly false. If nothing else, a person's real name, photo and location is far more than what we ask editors to publicly reveal on en.wiki, and that is the minimum people include in their Upwork bios. You must be aware of this, so I don't know why you are saying otherwise. In fact, on en.wiki, we specifically recommend that editors "consider carefully before creating an account in your real name or a nickname which might be traced to you, as these increase the potential for harassment, especially if you edit in controversial subject areas".
b) You are missing my point. You are asking for all paid editors to link to their details off-wiki. Yes, those impersonating established editors (although I'm not sure what you regard as impersonation) will have fake information. However, those people will not be providing a link, for obvious reasons. Those who are editing in good faith, though, and are trying to edit within policy, will also be asked to provide a link to their details. Those people are not impersonating other people (or they wouldn't provide the link), and therefore will be linking to genuine information about themselves. You will force those who are trying to edit within policy to out themselves. - Bilby (talk) 14:10, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
As appears to be usual we disagree. Paid editors are already required follow the TOU. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:44, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Yes, they are required to follow the ToU. I've never said otherwise. - Bilby (talk) 22:48, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
If you oppose this idea, what measures would you support to enforce the TOU? Or are you against any measure to enforce the TOU? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:18, 18 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
I have no problems with enforcing the ToU. I just wish to see it done within the exiting policy framework and expectations of the community. That said, what you are doing here is not to enforce the ToU - it is to address an off-wiki problem of a small number of paid editors claiming expertise that they may not have. The proposal is not to prevent them from editing without disclosure, but to prevent them from making certain claims off-wiki. - Bilby (talk) 07:09, 23 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
 It will achieve a bit of both. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:03, 23 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Not really. The ToU requires that people disclose their affiliation with their client. Requiring a link to details off wiki about the Wiki doesn't assist with this - it just adds another barrier to disclosure. The reason you've described for doing this has nothing to do with the ToU. - Bilby (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]


Impersonating users, fix the problem the right way

It is said several times that this is about users being impersonated on external sites. Groups can't be "impersonated", only persons can. That imply that all arguments about external users saying they are "wikipedians" is not enough, the external users must make active attempts to masquerade as a real user on Wikipedia. It is possible to impersonate a user on Wikipedia because the authenticity of a user on Wikimedia is too weak. We don't solve that by creating rules we can't enforce, we solve that by creating systems that makes it possible to authorize external accounts. In particular, dead accounts should be marked as such, and it should not be possible to use them for authorization of external accounts. Marking of dead accounts should kick in after a month or two, make it longer if necessary, and should strip the account of all elevated rights.

Note that proper authentication and authorization against external sites would imply a much broader discussion, and that it would not necessarily imply public disclosure of private information. You can be authenticated without being identified, but you can't be identified without being authenticated. A discussion about trustworthy disclosure of information will also be necessary, especially information that leads to identifiable information about a person being disclosed, but without even a working concept of what a user constitutes on WMF-sites it will be difficult.

As this RfC stands I can't support it. Do the right thing, don't create a mess. — Jeblad 16:21, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Individuals are also being impersonated. But agree most of it is misrepresentation. We do not allow non physicians to pretend they are physicians in nearly all jurisdictions globally. We as Wikipedians in good standing also do not want those not in good standing to pretend they are us as it tarnishes our reputation. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:59, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Question. Mr. Bad advertizes his services somewhere and asserts he is, in fact, Doc James. Then ... what? Retired electrician (talk) 22:00, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Anyone who comes across the ad can check my user page, see that a link to the ad is not listed, and request that the hoster of the ad remove it (with legal at the WMF cc'ed). One of the biggest market places (Upworks) is already willing to work with us on this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:13, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
So the proposal is that paid editors have to link to the specific profiles they have on other sites. That's.... Not clear from the wording of the proposal itself. I understood the proposal to require paid editors to disclose all Wikipedia accounts through which they do business. Ca2james (talk) 03:55, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Is it possible for someone to transcribe the relevant content of the Upwork profile referred to in the statement of issue? It's required to have an account in Upwork to be able to access the page, and I just don't feel like having to create an account just to get a better context of what we're talking about. Thanks. Sabbut (talk) 06:34, 18 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Expanded here Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:45, 18 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]


How big a problem is undisclosed paid promotional (UPE) editing?

This is a hard number to accurately measure as those involved are trying to hide what they are doing.

  • Number of articles written in this manner has been estimated by some in the 100,000s on EN WP*Some CUs on EN WP estimate that about half of cases reported at SPI pertain to UPE*The majority of large sock farms are related to UDP
  • It represents a substantial number of emails at OTRS
  • The en:WP:COIN noticeboard has seen about 5,000 comments in the last year[3]
  • We have dozens of full time companies, some with multiple staff, working in the area[4]
  • Upworks gives more than 1,000 accounts related with Wikipedia work in some way[5] (and that is just one of many sites like this and legal requests take downs of accounts already on a regular basis)
  • Fiverr also has plenty such as this who specializes in link spam. https://www.fiverr[.]com/murloc/link-your-website-to-relevant-wikipedia-page?context&context_referrer=search_gigs&context_type=auto&pckg_id=1&pos=3&ref_ctx_id=392af882-da91-4cd4-95b2-c53fa73d041c&funnel=9cbc871c-2048-4306-bf2e-b67e1370241b

But basically UPE is consuming large quantities of volunteer time. And frequently it is succeeding on pushing advertising into Wikipedia as it is swamping the checks and balances Wikipedia has in place to address it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:08, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

ok - how about a coffee house for UPE. what you really need is ten kevin gormans, so pick them and train them. Slowking4 (talk) 21:40, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
But how big a problem is paid editor impersonation of Wikipedia editors? If this proposal is about dealing with paid editors impersonating Wikipedia accounts, then that's the metric that's needed. If this proposal is really about managing paid editing (and the impersonation thing is not the actual primary rationale for this proposal), then it would be better to just state that up front. Ca2james (talk) 04:31, 22 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Some is impersonation of specific Wikipedians others is misrepresentation as a Wikipedian in good standing. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:11, 22 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
These statistics seem a bit over the top - part of the problem we have when discussing this is the tendency for the rhetoric to go a bit far. Paid editing is a serious problem. However, I'm having trouble with the 100,000's of articles claim. Is there anything to back that up, or is it just "estimated by some"? An easier one to check is the "Upworks gives more than 1,000 accounts related with Wikipedia work in some way". This is sort-of true - there are roughly 1100 accounts returned when you search for accounts using "Wikipedia" as the term. The problem is the "related with Wikipedia work in some way", as most of those are not offering Wikipedia editing services - they show up because of things like taking a job to collect data from Wikipedia; offering to do research using Wikipedia; or getting a job which contains a link to a Wikipedia article as an example of a logo the client likes. Out of the first 100 hits, after you get past the first 50 or so, almost none are offering Wikipedia editing services in their profiles. Of those in the 100 that do offer Wikipedia editing, and would therefore fall under this proposal, most do not claim any specific qualifications or experience on Wikipedia - they just have a tag saying "Wikipedia", or state that they have "experience editing Wikipedia", and aren't likely to be misrepresenting themselves. 13 of the accounts claim to have specific experience on Wikipedia, such as "created 40 articles" or "over 20,000 edits".
In the end, I think about 6 or so of the accounts returned by the search may be making unrealistic claims about their editing experience; none appeared to be impersonating a specific editor. I found that to be lower than expected, as I thought there would be closer to 10-20 editors claiming specific Wikipedia experience. However, it seems that with the increased activity in targeting these accounts, many are now set to private and can't be checked. I'm not sure how that would affect this proposal, but I guess if the profile isn't public, it makes no difference if they provide a link or not. - Bilby (talk) 00:10, 24 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Proposal needs to notified crosswiki

A proposal such as this needs to be notified crosswiki to each of the "Project:VillagePumps" if we wish for it to be a global policy. I would also suggest that we would look to put some banners out and about to bring forward other debate. Otherwise it runs the risk of being an English Wikipedia proposal with enWP contributors setting crosswiki policy. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:10, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

user:billinghurst Sept 17th 2017 messages were left at all the locations listed here . Translations have also begun into other languages. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:54, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

What happens next?

Though it might still be too early to say, this looks like it will pass. Could somebody review the procedures on Meta to say how it will be closed and when. Then what happens if it is passed? Will it have its own page linked somewhere under policy? Will we be able to tweak that page without restating the whole thing on a new RfC? (Of course there will be a new RfC, but how can changes be made?)

It's clear that this will apply to all paid editors on WMF projects under the ToU, but how will it affect the projects? Do they enforce this or does some global bureaucrat enforce it? It does look like it's mostly self-enforcing or enforced by the ad sites themselves. But say we find that there is no link on any Wiki to the ad site, who informs them? And if the ad site doesn't remove the offending account - is there anything we can do?

I'm not saying we need a specific enforcement provision built into this, just "How are these things usually handled on Meta?"

Pinging @Doc James and MF-Warburg: (MFW simply because he made a good technical suggestion above regarding Meta's rules) Smallbones (talk) 17:36, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Needs to be open at least a week. Will get further input from legal once closed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 15 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

In regard to the legal issue, how does this relate to the current privacy policy, as this will require some editors to provide personal information in order to contribute? - Bilby (talk) 01:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

No one is forcing anyone to do paid editing. Simple solution, stop editing for pay if you do not want to have to disclose editing for pay. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:45, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
This change will require people who wish to engage in editing for pay - which is a permitted behaviour so long as they disclose - to publicly provide personal information in order to edit. I would like to know if that is compatible with the privacy policy, as currently we state that people do not need to provide personal information in order to contribute to Wikipedia and the Free Knowledge movement. I think it is a fair question. How about we just see where it sits? - Bilby (talk) 03:02, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
You are requesting an opinion from the legal team? Contributing to Wikipedia in exchange for money, however, is not a guaranteed right. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:06, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
I am not saying that it is a guaranteed right, and yes, I'm asking for an opinion regarding how this works with the existing policy. What I am saying is that we have never, at any time, insisted that any editor publicly link to personal information about themselves in order to contribute to Wikipedia. If this change is accepted, it will be the first time we have ever asked that of an editor. Given that we've always said that editors do not need to provide personal information in order to contribute, and given that we even explicitly recommend that they do not do so, I'd like very much to know how this sits with the current privacy policy. - Bilby (talk) 03:53, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
While they can simply not edit for pay. And not advertise editing for pay. Than no personal / professional data or otherwise required. But lets see what legal says. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:06, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
(EC) "This Privacy Policy only covers the way the WMF collects and handles information." The WMF would not be collecting the information linked to by the paid editor, nor would the WMF be releasing it to anybody. Also the privacy policy is about non-public information collected by the WMF. This proposal is about public information voluntarily posted by paid editors on another website. If the paid editor is afraid that the information he is publicly making available on the other website should not be generally available, then all he needs to do is remove some of the information he publicly posts on the other website. In short our privacy policy has nothing to do with information publicly posted voluntarily on other websites by paid editors which is not collected by the WMF. Please read the privacy policy before you invoke it Smallbones (talk) 04:21, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
From the privacy policy:
"We believe that you shouldn't have to provide personal information to participate in the free knowledge movement. You do not have to provide things like your real name, address, or date of birth to sign up for a standard account or contribute content to the Wikimedia Sites." [6]]
Please read the privacy policy before accusing me of not reading it. :) Bilby (talk) - 04:36, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Immediately above the section you quote and in the same box is
"This is a summary of the Privacy Policy. To read the full terms, click here.
Disclaimer: This summary is not a part of the Privacy Policy and is not a legal document. It is simply a handy reference for understanding the full Privacy Policy. Think of it as the user-friendly interface to our Privacy Policy."
And of course the current proposal does not require anybody to provide "your real name, address, or date of birth"
You should read the section What This Privacy Policy Does & Doesn't Cover thoroughly. Smallbones (talk) 13:20, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
I quoted the relevant section. It isn't part of the summary. It states that users do not have to provide their real name, address or date of birth to contribute to Wikipedia. This proposal will change that, by requiring some editors - those who are being paid - to link to personal identifying information about themselves which will include their real name and where they live. It places a new burden on them which does not apply to anyone else who is contributing to Wikipedia. This may be fine with the existing policy. But I think that it makes sense for this to be clarified.
Personally, I would like to fight paid editing without sacrificing core principles of Wikipedia. But I understand and respect that there are those who disagree with me. Either way, it seems very reasonable to clarify that this sort of change is acceptable under policy. - Bilby (talk) 13:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
And of course the current proposal does not require anybody to provide "your real name, address, or date of birth". We should just ping @Slaporte (WMF): and he can tell us if it violates WMF's privacy policy. I can imagine that it might possibly be the case that WMF legal would not want to comment until they see the final policy. In that unlikely case, should we agree that we'll both just formally ask WMF legal to provide an opinion then? And, of course we should wait, say two weeks after the proposal is passed, to actually implement this to make sure that the advertising paid editors have a chance to know what is being required of them. We would have to publicize it widely of course.
I'll add that this is the type of information that is already required through the ToU paid editing section as an "affiliation" though that requirement is not clearly understood by paid editors (that's obvious because none of them that I know of declare affiliations). An affiliation is not exactly an employer or a client, but is closely related. The ad sites are how the editors make contact with their employers or clients. The ad sites don't actually legally pay the editor, but they do in most cases make some sort of guarantee or promise to take steps if the editor is not paid. In some case, if I remember correctly, they actually process or monitor the payment. We might as well ask WMF legal if this situation fits the ToU definition of "affiliation", but I'm sure it does. Smallbones (talk) 15:18, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
In some case, if I remember correctly, they actually process or monitor the payment -- Yes: Upwork, for instance, requires all payments to go through their payment processing system. This is strictly enforced. They only release the money to the freelancer several days to a week after the client has marked the job as completed. Moreover, a freelancer cannot legally work off-platform with a client they found through Upwork (for the first 24 months) without paying an opt-out fee. Rentier (talk) 18:52, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Yes, and if they are acting as a go-between between the editor and employer/client, or taking on part of the role of the employer (like paying the employee), then they are clearly an affiliation, if not technically the employer or client. Smallbones (talk) 20:23, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
The proposed requirement is that they "link on their user page to all other active accounts through which they advertise paid Wikipedia editing business". The focus here is Upwork. Linking to their Upwork account will link to:
  • Their real name
  • A photo
  • The area (city and country) that they live
In addition, this will typically include:
  • Employment history
  • Education history, including institutions
This is not the same as revealing how they are affiliated with the client, that they were paid through Upwork, who the client is, or who their employer is. This goes substantially further by linking to personal information about the editor. We do not ask this of any other editor in order for them to contribute. In fact, we specifically state that editors do not need to provide this information under policy, and specifically recommend that they do not provide this in order to avoid potential harassment. Accordingly, I would like to know if requiring people to link to this information in order to contribute would be a violation of the privacy policy. - Bilby (talk) 23:33, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Let's not exaggerate. The employment history, the education history and the last name can always be hidden by the freelancer, and it's possible to get away without a photo in the profile. Which leaves the first name, the first letter of the last name, the city and the country, which are only visible to registered Upwork users after signing in. Rentier (talk) 00:03, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
I'm listing what is typically provided, and what we will be asking that they link to. In some cases they provide less than that - a partial real name and the region they live in - but even the absolute minimum is less than what we ask editors to provide, and more than we recommend that they provide. - Bilby (talk) 00:12, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
As an example, I am linking to three randomly selected profiles of Upwork workers - [7] [8] [9]. Each has a photo, partial or full name, short biography, employment history and education. These are the typical profiles that we would be asking people to link to in order to contribute. - Bilby (talk) 00:17, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Non of those are offering WP editing services for pay. So no none of them would be required to be linked to. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:25, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
I chose them at random. They are typical profiles that we would require people to link to. - Bilby (talk) 00:55, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
A profile with visibility set to private won't show up in the search results. If you search, you will only find profiles with everything displayed. Many have hidden profiles and only reply to ads. Rentier (talk) 00:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
If the profile is invisible, this change in policy will not fix anything. If the profile is visible, the change in policy will require a link to their personal information. - Bilby (talk) 00:55, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Was this proposal already advertised widely? --MF-W 14:22, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Not via that list. Has been distributed via Wikimedia-l. Can you take care of that MF-W Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:57, 16 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Sorry, it has been a while since I last sent a massmessage and I currently lack the time to reacquaint myself with it. I only wanted to point out it out because I was pinged. --MF-W 01:45, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Do I understand it right, is this RFC meant to be made effective on all projects? If yes, I strongly recommend to inform and include much more people, especially from non-english projects, than only the few interested readers on wikimedia-l. Alice Wiegand (talk) 13:06, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

User:Lyzzy Just Wikipedias. Am working on the mass message to other languages. Message send. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:47, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
dewiki has got it and is quite neessary. -jkb- 21:27, 17 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
In Village Pump of nlwiki as well. Good point, Alice! Klaas `Z4␟` V: 04:45, 18 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Ich verstehe kein Wort, finde es aber prima, daß anscheinend und möglicherweise projektweit wirksame Änderungen zumindest im Hinterzimmer diskutiert werden. --smial (talk) 09:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Transl.: I don't understand a word, but I think it's great that apparent and possibly project-wide effective changes are at least being discussed in the back room. Kudpung (talk) 01:17, 19 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
 Hi all, popping in to help provide some clarification on the Privacy Policy issue. The key part here is at the beginning under "What This Privacy Policy Does & Doesn't Cover" where it states that it applies to "our collection and handling of information about you that we receive as a result of your use of any of the Wikimedia Sites." The "our" in that quote refers to the Wikimedia Foundation. A community policy that asks individuals to link to an account such as this proposal wouldn't be covered by the Privacy Policy because that's not the Wikimedia Foundation collecting private information. -Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 00:41, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Just to be clear, the policy also states "You do not have to provide things like your real name, address, or date of birth to sign up for a standard account or contribute content to the Wikimedia Sites". How do I read that in relation to the second statement? If a user is required to provide their real name in order to contribute via a link to their personal details, does that conflict? - Bilby (talk) 07:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
The text is "We believe that you shouldn't have to provide personal information to participate in the free knowledge movement. You do not have to provide things like your real name, address, or date of birth to sign up for a standard account or contribute content to the Wikimedia Sites." These are not standard accounts run by volunteers. These are not people freely participating in the open knowledge movement. These are paid editors most of whom are undisclosed, operating sock farms, and have previously blocked accounts. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:45, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
These are standard accounts by people contributing to the project. They are not checkuser accounts, or administrators, or arbcom members. Just typical accounts used by people to freely add content. Why they are adding content is irrelevant. - Bilby (talk) 21:44, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Sorry, Bilby, I have to disagree. Your opinion is of course your prerogative. IMO, you are wrong here though, paid editors are definitely not normal accounts. Whether their activity has been quasi 'legalised' by a clause that demands them to declare it, they are absolutely not in harmony of the fundamental principal of unpaid volunteer contributions, and that makes them alien to it. What they might be contributing might be irrelevant, but being paid for it is not. Please also see the statement above by Jrogers (WMF) which you appear to have missed. Kudpung (talk) 02:52, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
The wording is in relation to a "standard Wikipedia account", which is a normal account with no special permissions. A paid editor would still be given a normal account. Using a standard account, there should be (under policy) no need to provide personal information beyond, presumably, an email. I have no hassle if people see paid editors as a curse on Wikipedia, but this is not about why someone contributes, or who the person is, but simply the requirements for a standard account on the projects.
Jrogers' statement was important, but it seemed to contradict this aspect of the policy. I can see ways in which the statement and the policy can work together, but I'd like to clarify how he sees this line being applied. For me, it is a big step to go from saying that on one needs to provide personal information in order to contribute, to saying that some people need to provide it, and I would like to be sure that the step is acceptable under policy. - Bilby (talk) 04:14, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
These are not standard accounts run by volunteers. These are not people freely participating in the open knowledge movement. These are paid editors most of whom are undisclosed, operating sock farms, and have previously blocked accounts. Provided that it does not conflict with, negate, or lessen global policy, the individual projects can introduce any measures they wish which they consider to be a sharpening of rules. In the interests of protecting Wikipedia from abuse, some rules may need to be made that require connecting paid editors with their activities and if we reach a consensus tat requires them to identify themselves for an activity that is not conform with the basic philosophy of Wikipedia, it would be admissible. Whether a token toleration of paid editing has been expressed in some form or another or not, paid editing, IMO, is an unethical abuse of our philosophy and I am at loss to understand people who do not see paid editors as a curse on Wikipedia. Equally, any paid editor not wishing to conform to such requirements has something to hide more than their identity - such as for example those trusted with advanced rights that could assist them to avoid scrutiny of their articles. Kudpung (talk) 05:48, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
That's all great, but it is a radically different interpretation to what I see the "standard account" being a reference to. I would like clarification on this. - Bilby (talk) 11:25, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
I think that is an unnecessary splitting of hairs. Most of us here know what we are talking about. Kudpung (talk) 16:47, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
I don't see it as splitting hairs. You and I are interpreting the policy differently, and the difference is quite fundamental. To me, this proposal is a significant change in how the projects work, as we have never previously requested that any editor - paid or otherwise - publicly link to personal details in order to edit. I see it as important enough a change that I'd like to make sure that there is no conflict with the statement in the privacy policy that you do not need to provide such information to contribute with a standard account. I can see ways in which this would be consistent with that policy, but IANAL, so I'd like to be certain. - Bilby (talk) 23:02, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Example

Please see this Upwork profile. I have saved a pdf on my google drive here in case that is taken down.

This person says of themselves:

Top Rated Wikipedian!

I'm proud to be an Wikipedian. I have over 5 years professional experience of Wikipedia article publishing, Restoration & Syntax mark-ups. I'm a member of AFC and recent changes petroller in English Wikipedia and a Rollback Admin.

I'd like to help you with - Wikipedia, SEO and Marketing!

If this policy passes, that person will either disclose that they are editing for pay and will interlink their own accounts, or we can work with Upwork to get that ad taken down. And once they interlink, we can look at whether it is appropriate for that person to be editing for pay and to have NPP or AfC reviewer privileges. Jytdog (talk) 00:03, 19 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

A user may have a separate account with advanced rights that they do not use for paid editing, and a separate account without advanced rights that they use for disclosed paid editing. There might be legitimate reasons why they would not want to interlink these accounts (say, they edit controversial topics from their volunteer account and their real name is disclosed in their paid editing account). What you mention (losing an AfC reviewer privileges for the mere fact of paid editing and not for violating guidelines) might be another legitimate reason — NickK (talk) 17:27, 19 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
If one is using the existence of special abilities tied to one's "volunteer" account to get work for their "paid editing" account, those two accounts are not exactly separate. In fact they are more or less undisclosed socks.
If one is just pretending to have those privileges, they are being dishonest and harming the reputation of Wikipedians. Neither is a good situation. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:53, 19 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
In the first case, I agree that they are more or less undisclosed socks, but I do not agree we must make people disclose them. Many projects have policies like w:en:WP:SOCK, they never say that sock puppets are completely forbidden (at least not those I have read), instead they impose limits on their usage. Given that paid editing seems to be a problem for English Wikipedia, it might be legitimate to amend the English Wikipedia policy and request paid editors interlink their volunteer and paid editing accounts if they advertise paid editing. However, this requirement may not be reasonable for other projects.
In the second case, this is much more harmful for the reputation of the people who lied in their CVs and for platforms promoting them. If Upwork or similar platforms are willing to collaborate with us, it might be a good idea to ask them to check the identity of those who claim to have advanced permissions to make sure these platforms do not advertise people who lie — NickK (talk) 22:42, 19 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
IMO the first case is an illegitimate use of socks if they are not explicitly connected.
With respect to the second point, unless we put in place what is suggested in this RfC Upworks will not have any ability to confirm these claims and will simply continue to take peoples word. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:05, 19 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
@Doc James: Thank you for the details. As far as I see, this problem is specifically related to Upwork (no other website was mentioned here), and this is specifically related to English Wikipedia (I tried to look for profiles of people editing German or French Wikipedia on Upwork but did not find any). I do think this should be managed by English Wikipedia locally, it don't think it's a good idea to make WMF amend the global policy for an issue that is enwiki-only — NickK (talk) 12:51, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
@NickK: The problem is not limited to enwiki, examples: [10] [11] [12] Rentier (talk) 13:52, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
@Rentier: Are we speaking about the impersonation problem? I don't see any here. On the other hand, I do see a problem with the second profile: he claims to create articles in multiple wikis, will we require him to link accounts in each and every wiki or will he be able to choose a wiki himself? Either is impractical: in the first case a user may be blocked only for the mere fact he mentioned a language (say, he did not perform any paid editing in zhwiki but gets blocked for not linking accounts there), in the second case we may have to check all wikis to find the interlink — NickK (talk) 15:23, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
It is easy to make a tool that checks all wikis for a url. In fact I am fairly certain we have one already.
So yes link required and than tool will check all languages. Not at all impractical. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:32, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
What if they use different accounts for paid editing in different wikis (let's say that second user does paid editing as Oleksandr in enwiki, as Олександр in ukwiki and as 亞歷山大 in zhwiki) and have they use direct links (e.g. w:zh:User:亞歷山大) instead of URLs? It does not sound illegal, and I am not aware of any good tools to monitor such links. I have a strong feeling that we are trying to insert some form of monitoring of paid editors into our privacy policy while it does not really belong to that policy — NickK (talk) 09:51, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Why would this go in the privacy policy and not the paid editing policy? The links are to be to "upworks" etc. They are not WP links. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:21, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
@Doc James: Could you please clarify: under all other active accounts through which they advertise paid Wikipedia editing business you mean Upworks accounts, not Wikimedia accounts? I thought we were speaking of the latter — NickK (talk) 15:57, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
This proposal is to require linking from the Wikipedia account of the paid editor to the upworks accounts that they use to advertise paid Wikipedia editing. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:08, 21 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
OK, now it is clear, thanks. Please consider improving the wording as it is ambiguous (I thought that an "account" can only mean a Wikimedia account in our context) and not general enough (paid editing can also be advertised via independent websites, such as here) — NickK (talk) 09:57, 22 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
Yup and requiring links to these independent sites would also be good practice IMO. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:35, 22 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]
While Upwork does not verify credentials such as degrees or employment history, and they certainly don't verify Wikipedia privileges, their Marketplace Quality Team is very receptive to concerns involving violating the rules of other websites. Rentier (talk) 23:11, 19 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

Another Example

The EN:WP User INLINETEXT who exposed the Vipul paid editng network, was indeffed soon after he opposed William Beutler's proposed COI edits on Robert A. Mandell. Then Wiiliam Beutler apparently invited an Upworker/Wikipedian to insert that disputed text. How does this RfC address such cases of operating "within the WP:PAID policy by passing off Upworker coolies as neutral/uninvolved Wikipedians."? 103.30.143.51 08:33, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

This RfC only addresses two issues
1) It decreases the ability of those offering paid editing services on sites like Upworks to impersonated Wikipedians or misrepresent themselves as WPians in good standing
2) It will improve disclosure as required by the TOU for those involved in paid editing
So I this case that upworks account would be required to be linked by some account to their account on WP. As that Upwork account claims to have over 12,000 edits to the EN WP one could verify this if this passes and make sure proper disclose had occurred or more easily request to have the Upworks account removed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:41, 20 September 2017 (UTC) [reply ]

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