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Mud and metaphorical uses of that word

ThomasK

Senior Member
Belgium, Dutch
Som weeks ago I heard someone talk about the fact that s/he did not get anywhere, that he was just "mudding on", in Dutch: aanmodderen.

So the key word for "mud" is "modder" and it can be used metaphorically. Just BTW: by "mud" I mean "wet soil/earth (?)", the one that does not allow you to walk in a normal way because you sink into it or because your boots become too heavy. "Slijk" would not be impossible as an alternative but we cannot use that metaphorically. There is also the (uncommon) word "zomp" (swamp) but the adjective "zompig" is more common. No metaphorical use as far as I can see.

So what are your words for "mud" and can you use them metaphorically? That is my question. Thanks!
In French, we have the verb (s')embourber (to bog down / to get bogged down), from bourbe (mud/silt).

This reminds me of "mudblood" in Harry Potter, which was translated into French as "sang-de-bourbe".

In the same etymology, we also have bourbier (slough/mess).

"La parole de l'Évangile : Heureux les pauvres d'esprit, était la plus effroyable fausseté, qui, pendant des siècles, avait maintenu l'humanité dans le bourbier de misère et de servitude." (Émile Zola, Vérité, 1902)
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In Russian, the verb увязнуть is used similar to the French one provided by Yendred - but it stems from вязкий - "viscous", while meaning the same "to sink (partially)" - specifically in the mud, or figuratively in problems/work/etc.

As for the "mud" itself, we don't have a counterpart for it. When it's of soil and in the common context, the same word as "dirt" is used - грязь; and for other contexts or substances, things get more specific, and for the figures of speech as well.
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In Italian, the common word for mud is fango.
Metaphorically, 'fango' can also mean slander.
Gettare fango su qualcuno (literally: to throw mud on someone) to slander someone.
From 'fango' we also have the verb infangare (lit. to cover with mud) to tarnish someone's reputation.
There is also the (uncommon) word "zomp" (swamp) but the adjective "zompig" is more common. No metaphorical use as far as I can see.
Actually, that one (болóто) has wide metaphorical use in Russian. You can describe any lingering hopeless situation with it. E.g., a workplace with no career prospects etc.
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In Greek it's «λάσπη» [ˈlas̠.pi] (f.) < Byzantine Greek «λάσπη» /ˈlɐs.pi/ (f.) --> mud, silt, mire, slime of uncertain etymology (possibly from Koine «ἕλος» /ˈhe.los/ (n.), swamp, quite probably from the Ancient Greek feminine «λάπη» /ˈlɐ.pɛː/ --> foam, phlegm, mucus with an epenthetic sibilant).

The verb is «λασπώνω» [las̠ˈpo̞.no̞] (active) --> to bedraggle someone or something, to muddy someone or something.
The mediopassive form is «λασπώνομαι» [las̠ˈpo̞.no̞me̞] --> to bedraggle, muddy myself.

«Λάσπη» is metaphorically slander, defamation, so when I «ρίχνω λάσπη» [ˈɾi.xno̞ ˈlas̠.pi] --> throw mud at someone, I make false accusations against them.
There's the throw mud at the fan idiom used as TV cliché catch phrase when an accused politician pleads innocent. The meaning is that if you throw mud at the fan, the fan will return the mud back at you, it'll remain clean and unharmed itself (the lies that are thrown at them, will not affect them, they'll return back to the supposed slanderer and harm them instead).
The use of the word to translate 'mud' in Cymraeg/Welsh is a shibboleth. Either you are a Northerner and use the borrowing from English, mẁd (n.m.)/mʊd/ (the accent indicates a short vowel where a long one would have been expected) or you are a Southerner and use llaid* (n.m.) /ɬaɪd/.

Other Southern words include, plwca, llaca.
__________

*It would be interesting to call in @Yendred or any other Gaulist [sic.] here. GPC cites this as related to the (modern) city of Arles (< Gaulish Arelate). Is/Was Arles particularly boggy, marshy?
Some ENG. expressions with mud:

To muddy the waters - To confuse matters.
Here's mud in your eye! - A toast when drinking: "Cheers!"
As clear as mud - Often used sarcastically of situation which is not clear/obvious in any way.
*It would be interesting to call in @Yendred or any other Gaulist [sic.] here. GPC cites this as related to the (modern) city of Arles (< Gaulish Arelate). Is/Was Arles particularly boggy, marshy?
That's what they say on Wikipedia indeed. I trust it, I don't know the place much more personally.
les toponymistes et spécialistes du celtique ancien reconnaissent un composé celtique Are-late, basé sur are « devant, près de » (voir Armorique) et late « marais » cf. gallois llaid « boue », breton lez « boue » et vieil irlandais laith « marais, boisson », d'où le sens global de « (lieu situé) devant les marais ». On rapproche le celtique *lati (> -late) du vieux haut allemand letto « limon » et du latin latex « liquide », entre autres. Cette appellation convenait effectivement au site de la Arles antique qui était entouré de marais.
Arles — Toponymie

And indeed, Arles is located just before the Rhône river delta, a marshy area.


And by the way, Arles (/aʁl/) has given its name to the music piece by George Bizet L'Arlésienne (= "the girl from Arles").
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To muddy the waters - To confuse matters.
We use the same concept, мyтить воду [mʊˈtjitj ˈvodʊ].

And actually the stem word, муть [mutj] , looks similar to "mud"... The meaning is "dregs", or better said, sediment present in a liquid that makes it look blurry - and so by extension it's "blur" in common contexts, or (slangish) "nonsensical/obscure information/image" (incl. a movie, book).
Some ENG. expressions with mud:

To muddy the waters - To confuse matters.
....
We use «θολώνω τα νερά» [θo̞ˈlo̞.no̞ ˌt̠ane̞ˈɾa] --> to make turbid the waters.

The verb is «θολώνω» [θo̞ˈlo̞.no̞] --> to blur, steam up, fog up, make turbid < Ancient Greek verb «θολόω» /thoˈlo.ɔː/ (uncontracted), «θολῶ» /thoˈlɔ́.ɔ̀/ (contracted) --> to make turbid, unclean (possibly IE, cognate with Welsh dall, blind < PIE *dhwl̥no- dim, obscure)
In Spanish, we have lodo. Some expressions include: de aquellos barros, estos lodos (literal translation is tricky because both barro and lodo can be translated as mud. Basically lodo can be man-made while barro is natural. Lodo can also be (a bit) more 'fluent') meaning the origin of a current condition is found on an old problem that never got properly solved. Another one would be revolcarse en el lodo (to wallow in mud, like pigs). It's used when someone extends a shameful situation/actitude... more than it would be desirable.
We also have fango (example of use in an expression: arrastrar por el fango meaning to disrespect) and the verb enfangarse, the latter with the figurative meaning to get involved in something undiserable or to make something don't work properly (e.g.: enfangar la política, to make politics less smooth than it should be).
Catalan

Those in which mud = difficult or shameful situation:

estar dins el fang - be within the mud
ficar-se en el fang (or en un fangar) - to get into the mud (into a muddy place)
sortir del fang - get out of the mud
treure algú del fang - get somebody out of the mud
viure en el fang - live in the mud


Idiomatic expressions:

enviar algú a pastar fang - send somebody to graze mud
Ves a pastar fang! - Go to graze mud! = Get lost! Go to hell!​
​
ser un gegant amb peus de fang = be a giant with feet of clay

cabal de sang, cabal de fang - wealth of blood, wealth of mud = investing in livestock is far from being a safe bet

sortir del fang i caure al barranc - get out of the mud and fall into the ravine = to go out from the frying pan and into the fire

Déu nos guard de pols de maig i de fang d’agost - May God save us from dust in May and mud in August = unexpected weather in certain seasons is always bad for the fields

Hi ha qui vol que ploga i no faça fang - Some would like it to rain and find no mud
ser un gegant amb peus de fang = be a giant with feet of clay
We do have that one in Spanish too: ser un gigante con pies de barro.

estar dins el fang - be within the mud
ficar-se en el fang (or en un fangar) - to get into the mud (into a muddy place)
sortir del fang - get out of the mud
treure algú del fang - get somebody out of the mud
viure en el fang - live in the mud
And we have all those ones too: estar (metido) en el fango, meterse en el fango, salir(se) del fango, sacar (a alguien) del fango and vivir en el fango, respectively.
We do have that one in Spanish too: ser un gigante con pies de barro.
Yes, in French "colosse aux pieds d'argile".

It's a biblical reference. In the Book of Daniel (Old Testament), the King of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar II has a dream about a giant statue whose different parts are made of different materials.
Its feet being made of clay, when one strikes the feet of the statue, all the other parts collapse.
The dream symbolizes a great but fragile empire, because it's divided into parts that can take others down as they fall.
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And we have all those ones too: estar (metido) en el fango, meterse en el fango, salir(se) del fango, sacar (a alguien) del fango and vivir en el fango, respectively.
Fango is a word Spanish borrowed from Catalan. How comes these idioms in Spanish are not with barro or lodo?
@Yendred. Is there some physical difference between la boue, la bourbe, or la fange other than the most common word by far is la boue?

@Circunflejo.
So, lodo is more liquidy than barro? I've only really heard lodo in Latin American songs.
Fango is what those beauty masks are made of... ? Cieno is thick mud?

These differences in mud are hard to assimilate
@Yendred. Is there some physical difference between la boue, la bourbe, or la fange other than the most common word by far is la boue?
Yes, the most common by far is la boue.
La bourbe has almost completely disappeared, expect in terms like (s')embourber.
And as I said above, la fange is quite literary and usually applies in the context of debauchery.

I don't know if originally, there were physical differences.
More about that. According to my dictionaries:
Bourbe = boue épaisse et noire qui se dépose au fond des eaux stagnantes.
Fange = couche épaisse de boue sale et visqueuse, souvent d'origine marécageuse.

I had no idea about these differences.
Thanks, Yendred!!! I had the feeling the only word used is

More about that. According to my dictionaries:
Bourbe = boue épaisse et noire qui se dépose au fond des eaux stagnantes.
Fange = couche épaisse de boue sale et visqueuse, souvent d'origine marécageuse.

I had no idea about these differences.
Well, given your definitions I can ascertain that Bourbe = Silt and Fange = Mire (I'm not sure about the pronunciation). But I caution people that these words are rarely used. They have a technical feel if used.
Bourbier = quagmire
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'mire' rhymes with 'fire' to me so it's /maɪə/ in this part of the world. (A triphthong). 'The Grimpen Mire' features prominently in the Sherlock Homes story, 'The Hound of the Baskervilles'.
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Yes, quagmire rhymes with fire.

I just realized that "to be mired by problems" or "mired in a bad situation" comes from "mire/ mud". I didn't see the allusion to mud at all, but you are definitely "stuck" when "mired". Embourbé = stuck in the mud.
It's interesting that an expression can survive even when the root or origin in meaning stops being used.
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Fango is a word Spanish borrowed from Catalan
Yes.

How comes these idioms in Spanish are not with barro or lodo?
Well, there's meterse en un lodazal, for example. Origine and development of idioms is tricky.

So, lodo is more liquidy than barro?
Not necessarily. Both are a mix of tierra and water. Lodo is mostly used for the mix in which rain water is involved. That's the main difference but barro may be used for that too. Lodo may be more liquid, but no necessarily.

Fango is what those beauty masks are made of... ?
No, that's arcilla. Fango is a mix of tierra and stagnant water.

Cieno is thick mud?
Silt.
Yes, in French "colosse aux pieds d'argile".

It's a biblical reference. In the Book of Daniel (Old Testament), the King of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar II has a dream about a giant statue whose different parts are made of different materials.
Its feet being made of clay, when one strikes the feet of the statue, all the other parts collapse.
The dream symbolizes a great but fragile empire, because it's divided into parts that can take others down as they fall.
I have just been wondering: I love that expression, but... As far as I can see, the expression refers to clay or loam (or argile..), mainly because of the lack of strength of this kind of soil, even or especially after having been dried. But: is that the same, err, concept as mud? I do not think so: I'd never even try to build some object out of mud, supposing we mean by it wet soil. Such a statue would not have been made out of wet soil except if dried afterwards...
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Drag someone's name through the mud.
Pull someone down in the mud.
Throw mud on someone.

To denigrate someone's reputation

What is mud anyway? I'm sure by altering the amounts and types of earth and liquids, you get several different products, all of which with different names.

I doubt clay, putty, slurry are natural
The clay for pottery and statues is so smooth and dries evenly.
I have just been wondering: I love that expression, but... As far as I can see, the expression refers to clay or loam (or argile..), mainly because of the lack of strength of this kind of soil, even or especially after having been dried. But: is that the same, err, concept as mud? I do not think so: I'd never even try to build some object out of mud, supposing we mean by it wet soil. Such a statue would not have been made out of wet soil except if dried afterwards...
The differences in translation are explained by nuances in the interpretation of the biblical text. The original Hebrew term refers to soft or malleable earth.
The key point is that the material that makes the statue's feet is fragile and can break easily.
Yes, quagmire rhymes with fire.
...
That's «βούρκος» [ˈvuɾ.ko̞s̠] (m.), possibly with metathesis, from the Ancient Greek adj. «βρύχιος» /ˈbry.khi.os/ --> deep (under water) which supposes a (never attested) noun *βρύξ /bryk͡s/ (m. or f.) --> depth of the sea (with no etymology).
It has produced in MoGr the verb «βουρκώνω» [vuɾˈko̞.no̞] --> to become misty, misty-eyed, and the adjective «βουρκωμένος» [vuɾko̞ˈme̞.no̞s̠] --> misty-eyed (a 1966 music hit is μάτια βουρκωμένα = misty eyes).
Yes, in French "colosse aux pieds d'argile".

It's a biblical reference. In the Book of Daniel (Old Testament), the King of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar II has a dream about a giant statue whose different parts are made of different materials.
Its feet being made of clay, when one strikes the feet of the statue, all the other parts collapse.
The dream symbolizes a great but fragile empire, because it's divided into parts that can take others down as they fall.
In the Septuagint, αἱ κνῆμαι σιδηραῖ, οἱ πόδες μέρος τι σιδηροῦν καὶ μέρος τι ὀστράκινον, the adjective is «ὀστράκινος, -νη, -νον» /oˈstrɐ.kinos/ (m.), /oˈstrɐ.kinɛː/ (f.), /oˈstrɐ.kinon/ (n.) --> earthen, like earthenware < Ancient Greek neuter «ὄστρακον» /ˈo.strɐkon/ --> hard shell of snails, mussels, turtles; as «ὄστρακον» also described earthen potsherd for writing on, e.g. at a vote positively or for exile, hence ostracize, ostracism, synecdochically came to describe any container made of clay used for everything, in general the earthen vessel
The clay used for pottery and statues is refined. Natural clay "in the wild" is relatively common in floodplains and riverbanks.

My guess is that mud, clay, and slurry are differentiated based on the ratio of water to solid particles and the size of the particles.
Putty as I know it is different; it's made from clay and oil, not water.
My guess is that mud, clay, and slurry are differentiated based on the ratio of water to solid particles and the size of the particles.
Hmm... Isn't clay a specific oxide composition that allows it to be fired?... Perhaps mud is just unspecified in composition as a common term for dense substances (bit still rather mineral, unlike dirt, which is more of organic soil), and slurry - yes, more liquid and also mineral, but again, unspecified in composition (as I understand it's what flows out when they dig tunnels and mines)?.
I did say "my guess," but I think (again my guess) that mud is softer than clay, whatever the particles in clay are, and slurry is softer than both of them. Slurry can be water and clay, water and wood pulp, water and manure, etc.
The clay used for pottery and statues is refined. Natural clay "in the wild" is relatively common in floodplains and riverbanks.

My guess is that...clay, and slurry are differentiated based on the ratio of water to solid particles and the size of the particles.
Putty as I know it is different; it's made from clay and oil, not water
Clay is «πηλός» [piˈlo̞s̠] (m.) < Ancient Greek masc. «πηλός» /pɛːˈlos/ --> loam, clay, mud, dung, bog, with no etymology. The vessels made from clay are called «πήλινα» [ˈpi.lina] (n. nom. pl.). Τhe person who makes earthenware is a «πηλουργός» [piluɾˈɣo̞s̠] (m. or f.), from «πηλός» + «ἔργον» /ˈer.gon/ (n.), or a (younger) «πηλοπλάστης» [piloˈpla.s̠t̠is̠] (m. or f.), from «πηλός» + «πλάσσω» /ˈplɐs.sɔː/.

Slurry is either
(1) (colloq.) «λασπουριά» [las̠puɾˈʝa] (f.), from «λάσπη» (see post #11) + «-ουριά» [-uɾˈʝa] which is a productive suffix for constructing feminine nouns with augmentative form but negative/pejorative connotation < Βyzantine Greek feminine suffix «-ούρα» /-ˈu.rɐ/ for constructing (a) action nouns, (b) feminine pejorative nouns < Late Latin suffix -s/tura + Ancient Greek suffix «-ίᾱ» /-ˈi.ɐː/, or,
(2) (form.) «εναιώρημα» [e̞ne̞ˈo̞.ɾima] (n.) --> suspended matter in liquid < Ancient Greek neuter «ἐναιώρημα» /enɐi̯ˈɔː.rɛːmɐ/ (idem), a deverbal from the deponent verb «ἐναιωρέομαι-ἐναιωροῦμαι» /enɐi̯ɔːˈre.omɐi̯/ (uncontracted)-/enɐi̯ɔːˈrú.ùmɐi̯/ --> to float or drift about («ἐν» /en/ + verb «αἰωρέω» /ɐi̯ˈre.ɔː/ (active) --> to hang, lift, raise, «αἰωροῦμαι» /ɐi̯ɔːˈrú.ùmɐi̯/ (mediopassive) --> to hover < archaic intensive (iterative) verb *ϝαι-ϝωρ-έω /*wɐi̯.wɔːr.ˈe.ɔː/ from a possible PIE root *h2uōr-ei̯e- to hang).

Putty is «στόκος» [ˈs̠t̠o̞.ko̞s̠] (m.) < Ven. stuco.
More about that. According to my dictionaries:
Bourbe = boue épaisse et noire qui se dépose au fond des eaux stagnantes.
Fange = couche épaisse de boue sale et visqueuse, souvent d'origine marécageuse.

I had no idea about these differences.
Neither did I.

We also have la vase. To me, it's the same as boue.

In Canadian French, we also have bouette. Basically the same as boue (mud), but with more water in it, and more slippery.
I make a distinction between boue (mud) and vase (silt). Vase is a sediment at the bottom of ponds, while boue forms overground when it rains.
Silt (vase) has a finer texture and is made of wet earth and decomposed organic matter.
Mud (boue) is mainly wet earth mixed with gravel.

Also be careful not to confuse la vase (silt) with le vase (vase for flowers).
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Interesting distinction, @Yendred. I am wondering about the words in Dutch: modder of course for "mud"; and slib for the sediment in a pond. However, any silt at the bottom of a river is translated as slib. Slib can only be found at the bottom of a pond or river, but modder is only on the surface, I think, after rain on dirt roads...

But maybe it would be an innovative idea to grow roses in un vase full of de la/ plein de vase? ;-)
Clay is «πηλός» [piˈlo̞s̠] (m.) < Ancient Greek masc. «πηλός» /pɛːˈlos/ --> loam, clay, mud, dung, bog, with no etymology. The vessels made from clay are called «πήλινα» [ˈpi.lina] (n. nom. pl.). Τhe person who makes earthenware is a «πηλουργός» [piluɾˈɣo̞s̠] (m. or f.), from «πηλός» + «ἔργον» /ˈer.gon/ (n.), or a (younger) «πηλοπλάστης» [piloˈpla.s̠t̠is̠] (m. or f.), from «πηλός» + «πλάσσω» /ˈplɐs.sɔː/.

Slurry is either
(1) (colloq.) «λασπουριά» [las̠puɾˈʝa] (f.), from «λάσπη» (see post #11) + «-ουριά» [-uɾˈʝa] which is a productive suffix for constructing feminine nouns with augmentative form but negative/pejorative connotation < Βyzantine Greek feminine suffix «-ούρα» /-ˈu.rɐ/ for constructing (a) action nouns, (b) feminine pejorative nouns < Late Latin suffix -s/tura + Ancient Greek suffix «-ίᾱ» /-ˈi.ɐː/, or,
(2) (form.) «εναιώρημα» [e̞ne̞ˈo̞.ɾima] (n.) --> suspended matter in liquid < Ancient Greek neuter «ἐναιώρημα» /enɐi̯ˈɔː.rɛːmɐ/ (idem), a deverbal from the deponent verb «ἐναιωρέομαι-ἐναιωροῦμαι» /enɐi̯ɔːˈre.omɐi̯/ (uncontracted)-/enɐi̯ɔːˈrú.ùmɐi̯/ --> to float or drift about («ἐν» /en/ + verb «αἰωρέω» /ɐi̯ˈre.ɔː/ (active) --> to hang, lift, raise, «αἰωροῦμαι» /ɐi̯ɔːˈrú.ùmɐi̯/ (mediopassive) --> to hover < archaic intensive (iterative) verb *ϝαι-ϝωρ-έω /*wɐi̯.wɔːr.ˈe.ɔː/ from a possible PIE root *h2uōr-ei̯e- to hang).

Putty is «στόκος» [ˈs̠t̠o̞.ko̞s̠] (m.) < Ven. stuco.
Great that Roxxxanne came up with clay and especially slurry. I just thought we could add regarding clay that is a kind of soil, like loam or sand, but that one pecular aspect of clay is that it is very sticky. Mud can be sticky too, but "clayy" (?) mud can be extremely sticky, I remember.

Funny thing is that we would refer to slurry as "pap", kind of porridge for kids: very fluid, ideal for kinds without teeth yet.Easier to walk through, I think, than mud... And yes, as our mudd-o-logist suggested: the dose of water can be the distinctive element.

Aother funny thing: none of the alternatives of mud has inspired us to produce expressions. Mud might be the metonym (or what is the correct word again?)...
Silt (vase) has a finer texture and is made of wet earth and decomposed organic matter.
Mud (boue) is mainly wet earth mixed up with gravel.

Also be careful not to confuse la vase (silt) with le vase (vase for flowers).
The only difference I might say is that silt, in my opinion, is a word rarely used, unless by experts. I think I learned it in some Earth Science class in High School in the context of the Mississippi River having a lot of it, forming islands of silt deposit... When I visited the area they called it mud, hence my confusion.
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