Reader treatment #66

fsologureng commented 2023年01月16日 20:46:18 +01:00

There is an agreement about reader treatment? 2nd person or 3rd person?
you can be translated to Spanish as 2nd person or 3rd person in some contexts.

In English there's only one option, second person.

For other languages I think it's a per-language choice depending on language conventions. Of course a regional choice could also make sense but I'm not sure if we really need regional localisations at this point.

• In Spanish for example I suppose you are referring to "usted", the formal "you" which takes third-person singular conjugations of verbs. In the case of Spanish my feeling is to stick with the informal "tu", though obviously the opinions of native speakers such as yourself are more relevant.

• Portuguese is another interesting case, where there is a major regional difference: In Brazil, "você" is used as the primary second-person pronoun but it takes third-person verb conjugations. In Portugal on the other hand "tu" is used which takes second-person verb conjugations.

• French is another interesting case. My French is poor, so @dachary should correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that their second -person singular formal pronoun "vous" is identical to the second-person plural and takes second-person plural verb conjugations.

For all these reasons it's not an easy thing to have a generic rule about that would apply to all locales.

That said, my own feeling is we should tend towards informal rather than formal, but there may be locales where this is not appropriate.

Originally posted by @caesar in #57 (comment)

I agree with @caesar proposal, but probably we need other visions wrt.

> There is an agreement about reader treatment? 2nd person or 3rd person? > `you` can be translated to Spanish as 2nd person or 3rd person in some contexts. In English there's only one option, second person. For other languages I think it's a per-language choice depending on language conventions. Of course a regional choice could also make sense but I'm not sure if we really need regional localisations at this point. - In Spanish for example I suppose you are referring to "usted", the formal "you" which takes third-person singular conjugations of verbs. In the case of Spanish my feeling is to stick with the informal "tu", though obviously the opinions of native speakers such as yourself are more relevant. - Portuguese is another interesting case, where there is a major regional difference: In Brazil, "você" is used as the primary second-person pronoun but it takes third-person verb conjugations. In Portugal on the other hand "tu" is used which takes second-person verb conjugations. - French is another interesting case. My French is poor, so @dachary should correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that their second -person singular formal pronoun "vous" is identical to the second-person *plural* and takes second-person plural verb conjugations. For all these reasons it's not an easy thing to have a generic rule about that would apply to all locales. That said, my own feeling is we should tend towards informal rather than formal, but there may be locales where this is not appropriate. _Originally posted by @caesar in https://codeberg.org/forgejo/website/pulls/57#issuecomment-773489_ I agree with @caesar proposal, but probably we need other visions wrt.

realaravinth commented 2023年01月16日 23:08:14 +01:00

That said, my own feeling is we should tend towards informal rather than formal, but there may be locales where this is not appropriate.

• In Tamil, நீங்கள் is the formal "you" and நீ is the informal "you".
• In Hindi, आप is formal and तू is informal.

Respect plays critical role in both Tamil and Hindi. One expected to be respectful while communicating with elders and formal while communicating with strangers, irrespective of age. Using the informal "you" in both Tamil and Hindi would be perceived as rude and disrespectful, so I recommend using the formal "you".

> That said, my own feeling is we should tend towards informal rather than formal, but there may be locales where this is not appropriate. - In Tamil, `நீங்கள்` is the formal "you" and `நீ` is the informal "you". - In Hindi, `आप` is formal and `तू` is informal. Respect plays critical role in both Tamil and Hindi. One expected to be respectful while communicating with elders and formal while communicating with strangers, irrespective of age. Using the informal "you" in both Tamil and Hindi would be perceived as rude and disrespectful, so I recommend using the formal "you".

fsologureng commented 2023年01月17日 00:35:30 +01:00

I should created this issue in meta.

I should created this issue in meta.

KaKi87 commented 2023年01月18日 03:23:30 +01:00

Internet is and should be informal.

Internet is and should be informal.

caesar commented 2023年01月18日 04:39:54 +01:00

Internet is and should be informal.

I think that depends on the locale. I think we can say that in Western European cultures it's generally informal. But @realaravinth gives a good example of locales where the reverse is probably generally true.

> Internet is and should be informal. I think that depends on the locale. I think we can say that in Western European cultures it's generally informal. But @realaravinth gives a good example of locales where the reverse is probably generally true.

KaKi87 commented 2023年01月18日 04:44:52 +01:00

Internet, as an international place, should be informal, regardless of locale.

Besides, being informal doesn't mean to be disrespectful.

People considering informal communication as disrespectful, are only trying to make communication more difficult, while Internet tries to make it more simple, only because it doesn't serve their ego.

Internet, as an international place, should be informal, regardless of locale. Besides, being informal doesn't mean to be disrespectful. People considering informal communication as disrespectful, are only trying to make communication more difficult, while Internet tries to make it more simple, only because it doesn't serve their ego.

caesar commented 2023年01月19日 08:05:09 +01:00

Honestly, I think this is a decision that can only be made by speakers of each language who understand the nuance and conventions of that language – and even of each specific locale. (For example, in pt-PT it is common to use "tu", whereas in pt-BR "tu" is only used for very close family and in religious worship. Instead "você" is used in everyday conversation, which is a sort of intermediate-formality. Similarly, in es-AR and es-UY for example, it is common to use the informal pronoun "vos" which takes a completely different set of verb conjugations that are unused in other Spanish-speaking locales.)

In certain languages and locales using informal pronouns in inappropriate situations can be very disrespectful.

If we want to get technical, by the way, the English "you" is actually a formal second-person singular pronoun. The informal is (or was) "thou", but it fell out of use and is now obsolete. However "you" continues to (mostly) take plural verb conjugations even when used in the singular. Language is fascinating!

---

Having said all the above: I'm going to close this issue, and I believe the resolution is:

Each localisation team should choose a form of reader treatment appropriate to their locale and apply it consistently.

If anyone disagrees, feel free to discuss further or to reopen.

Honestly, I think this is a decision that can only be made by speakers of each language who understand the nuance and conventions of that language – and even of each specific locale. (For example, in `pt-PT` it is common to use "tu", whereas in `pt-BR` "tu" is only used for very close family and in religious worship. Instead "você" is used in everyday conversation, which is a sort of intermediate-formality. Similarly, in `es-AR` and `es-UY` for example, it is common to use the informal pronoun "vos" which takes a completely different set of verb conjugations that are unused in other Spanish-speaking locales.) In certain languages and locales using informal pronouns in inappropriate situations can be *very* disrespectful. If we want to get technical, by the way, the English "you" is actually a formal second-person singular pronoun. The informal is (or was) "thou", but it fell out of use and is now obsolete. However "you" continues to (mostly) take plural verb conjugations even when used in the singular. Language is fascinating! --- Having said all the above: I'm going to close this issue, and I believe the resolution is: ***Each localisation team should choose a form of reader treatment appropriate to their locale and apply it consistently.*** If anyone disagrees, feel free to discuss further or to reopen.