Timestamps are in UTC.
So Mike - what brings you here? Or are you always here and I never noticed?
yes, welcome mlinksva
i've decided to hang out on irc more, cause i have nothing better to do, and 'microformats' sounds rad. what kind of music do they play?
no, really, i am hanging out on irc more, and have been meaning to dig into microformats a bit more, so i'm just lurking here for the time being as a consequence
mike, perhaps you can help brainstorm with us on how to apply rel-license to *portions* of a page (like a single blog post) and external resources (like photos).
yeah, that's one of the things i'm interested in
rel=license should be an officious atom extension rsn
a point raised at last nights media-info / fotonotes brainstorming dinner
i need to look at hAtom
ah interesting
I wonder if we could include license information in a longdesc
perhaps hAtom should include use of rel-license on hentry as well as the top level feed?
[[photo-note-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=photo-note-examples&diff=0&oldid=4265 * GregElin * (+291) Examples - - added fotonotes
bk, longdesc is typically invisible right?
i'd rather go with existing practice
which is people actually putting visible license hyperlinks on their blog and blog posts
hyperlinling the img elements you mean?
Yeah, longdesc is almost never used except for additional information about an image.
ah, i see what you mean
using longdesc to link to more info about the image
which could include the license!
right
(tuning out for a meeting...)
So we'd be using the longdesc correctly
does <object> have longdesc also?
I think so.
fwiw see http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=249 (several atom extensions) and http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-04.txt
blast - no: http://www.w3.org/TR/html40/index/attributes.html
http://www.w3.org/TR/html40/struct/objects.html#edef-OBJECT
However we could use the data attribute
but data points to the src
hrm...
right...duh
What child elements can be used under object?
ping
so if you use longdesc to point to info about an image/object, that just pushes the problem to another url, which has to contain some statements about the image url ... i won't say what that's reinventing. using longdesc specifically for license seems like a terrible narrowing of its intention
you're right
I forgot that Longdesc wasn't text
[[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4266 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+775) When is a bare href (not) a citation?
i'm dtd-rusty, but afaict object can contain just about any html
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
but the contents of an <object> are defined to be *fallback* for the object in the case that the browser doesn't support the <object> itself
so that semantic is already defined
there seems to be a lot of overlap BTW between citations and media-info
is media-info just a special citation?
do we need to solve the cite problem first and then use that as a building block for other microformats?
very true, it would be stretching to use fallback markup to describe the preferred object
factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
re: cite....seems to make sense.
It looks like hAtom is being used as a building block as well.
who here is interested in the cite microformat efforts?
meeeeee
cool
sorry...overzealous enthusiasm is mah name.
do we have sufficient examples and formats research to start brainstorming?
Not sure. Need to look em over again
i'm not!
heh
it seems to me that an hCite could serve as a core building block for numerous other microformats
i'm seeing patterns of commonality all around
as long as hFigure shows up
hFigure?
ask tantek
factoryjoe, could you point to a URL that shows an example of what you would call a "figure"?
yes
factoryjoe.com/blog
any image with something like class="alignleft | aligncenter | alignright"
those aren't semantic tags
i would like something like class="hfigure alignright"
i can find others
but what does figure mean?
other than "image"
or "object"
damn....where are all the cite examples?
http://microformats.org/wiki/cite-examples
it might make sense to think of atom entries outside of the context of atom feeds -- the container would be superfluous for things at aren't actually feeds. any atom rel extension could be directly supported. any block you wanted to annotate would need to be wrapped in <div class="hentry">, the block itself being class="content". of course this is a super-generic annotation mechanism, not particularly using any xhtml sema
ntics.
figure means "a representative illustration of this document | post | content"
btw, on send_pings: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/news/2847/tracking-click-pings-phpmysql
so a figure is a rel="alternate" type="image/*" ?
mm: http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/19/technology/futureboy/index.htm
tantek: sort of...
what else is it then?
i looked at the cite pages on the wiki briefly and didn't really get the overall intent. bibliographic info? apropos to what's in a blockquote?
though it could also be those woodcut illustrations in .... the WSJ
those are just images
that's what i mean
yeah...they are
i don't see the semantic distinction of a figure above and beyond an image/object
if it is just a synonym
then we don't need any new format
mlinksva - visible citations
blockquote lets you link to a cite via its cite attribute which is a url
as does "q" for inline citations
what about this: http://marketwatch.nytimes.com/custom/nyt-com/html-industryfocus.asp?ind_abbr=isv&ind_sid=980703
(the graph)
an image
that can be described in detail through longdesc ;P
or maybe: http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/20/technology/google_stock/index.htm
the google rollercoaster vs the big technology block..
Now.....a collection of images to make up a figure....
basically you could use an hFigure as a way to leave certain things in a post if you wanted to just see the article + hfigures
i.e. it could be used in the content of hAtom descriptions...
bkdelong: right, that too
or, an image with a caption
like tables have captions
i mean, my point is really that "alignright" doesn't tell me anything semantic
besides where something should be rendered in flowed text
my point is HTML already has everything you have mentioned for a figure
I see what you're saying
but it doesn't tell me that it's related to the post
the context tells you that
hmm
no
simply be embedding the image in the context of the entry
again
you are saying it is realted
look at that google stock page
related even
that big "technology" rectangle adds nothing to my understanding of the article
so i wanted to, for example, grab that article and move into a scrapbook
i would only want to extract the related hFigures
not the extra stupid stuff
i need a better example
lemme keep looking
by default all nested images/objects are related content
if it is only decorative, it should be presented via CSS
??
that's so not what happens
http://www.slate.com/id/2134461/
look at the big honkin ad in the middle of the text
that is NOT an hFigure
nor is presented via CSS
(as far as I can tell)
yet if i want to ONLY select the article (including illiustrative images, figures, formulas, etc) that ad will be contained in the selection
am i wrong?
perfect: http://www.usatoday.com/money/markets/us/2006-01-20-stocks-daily_x.htm
Basically you're saying you want to add more context to images within an article or blog posting
factoryjoe, we can't control what people do wrong
scroll down to the green box: "HOW STOCKS PERFORMED"
if they are using XHTML wrong, then there is no reason to expect that they would make use of microformats
bkdelong: yeah, like make it explicit that certain content is part of a post or article
tantek: of course
hence there is no reason to invent a microformat for something that just requires proper use of XHTML
i'm looking for my own standard
for my blog
you asked for general examples in the wild why this would be useful
my points, just following proper XHTML, you don't need another standard
unless there is something i am missing
again, how is figure not just a synonym for image - in your blog for example
well, i'm not articulating it quite well enough
you're mostly right
tantek: in that last example
you need to explain why figure is *special*
you've got text AND images
how it implies additional semantics above and beyond just an image
together they combine to make a FIGURE
and that figure is related to the context of the article in which its founds
found
ok, like imagine this
let's say i have a greasemonkey script
"magic erase everything else so i can read just the content" script
like adblock on roids
it would look for hatom content
and hfigures embedded in the hatom content
everything else w/o hfigure would get blown away
i could then print that, save it, send it... etc
if it's just an image, how do i know it's not an ad?
hfigure would make it explicit
i could be totally wrong in my approach here -- that's known to happen -- but it makes sense to me...
maybe not as a Tantek-sanctioned-microformat.. but maybe just as a convention
certainly better than "alignfoo"
tantek, i did not know about the cite attribute of blockquote and q. this seems trivial to use. what would a potential hcite mf add? and how would it be a building block for other mf's -- cite seems very specific -- "URI that designates a source document or message", only applicable to blockquote and q.
anyway, i'll let ya stew on that for a bit
;)
wiki it in brainstorm / discussion
um, alignfoo is orthogonal AFAIK
mlinksva, yes a cite link *is* very specific
an hCite would be used to markup and actual citation's components
e.g
Çelik T. "CSS3 Basic User Interface Module" W3C Technical Reports and Publications <http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-css3-ui-20040511> (2004)
currently HTML has the <cite> element
so you can markup that whole thing as a <cite>
but the question is, could we come up with a microformat to markup the individual pieces
author, title, publication, URL, date
which are all *part* of the citation
factoryjoe, how about marking up the ads as such instead?
the "collection of stuff makes a figure" is an interesting line of thinking
something like: photo + media-info = figure ?
I'm not sure that is compatible with "common" use of the term figure
e.g. in a text book the figure is usually *just* the image
and it is often labeled as "figure 5.7" or something
and then referenced as such
i dunno about that
i think figures are often illustration + title + description
or in a newspaper: photo + credit + caption
it's a group of related items
and for marking up the ads.. i think there'd be more stuff you'd want to exclude than include...
tantek: going to be @ cttp much longer?
i think i'd like to return
yes
mj & eran r here
amber is coming by
ah nice
ok
be there in 12
mlinksva, did my example make sense?
bbiaf
tantek, ok i understand the desire to markup the contents of <cite>. that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the cite attribute, unless the intention is for a cite attribute to point to a named anchor, which would precede the <cite>. in any case, i don't see the commonality with media-info. hcite would be markup up the contents of an element -- <cite>, the problem with marking up an img, object, or similar is one
of annotating an external thing, not a block self-annotating itself.
jay is in San Francisco & found at http://icite.net/blog/ & likes to learn IRC bot tricks & Jay Fienberg & blogs at http://icite.net/blog/
hmm not sure about that
hello all
mlinksva, yes, there is the distinction of annotating an external thing vs. a thing inline
but they seem to have A LOT of overlap
tantek, can i ask a question?
yes
do you think there could be any future in developing a microformat for the higher education sector, i.e. creating a standardised way of tagging course information, such as course titles, descriptions, entry req's etc
are such things published on the web in any sort of common pattern?
well from a UK perspective most of them do
tara is Miss HorsePigCow (http://www.horsepigcow.com/) and the alter-ego of missrogue
i'm not sure about the US, i guess they might not have all the same variables for each course, i suppose that is part of the challengem getting a "buy in" from institutions
i'm just thinking that in terms of potential students, if courses are available in common formats, it would open up a multitude of search opportunities
tantek, could you be explicit about what overlap you see? my guess is 1) you might want to make some of the same annotations about both and 2) in the case of <cite> you're actually annotating an externing thing -- the thing being cited. so the super generic way to handle both would be to say "here's a block that annotates something" and "here's the thing being annotated", e.g., class="annotation-container" on the former
and rel="annotation-subject" on the <a> to the thing being cited (<http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-css3-ui-20040511> in your example) or class="annotation-subject" on the img/object -- not meant to be anything close to the correct syntax, just illustrative -- but that seems perilously close to reinventing you know what
i work for the www.port.ac.uk webteam and am starting a recode of html 3.2/4.0 in our CMS to xhtml and was wondering about any added extras
factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
I'm also in the futuresalon channel and watching the video stream of it...
http://mfile.akamai.com/14947/sdp/accelerating.org/salon_01_2006.mov
nice
:) people eating at SAP...before they talk with Douglas Engelbart
http://www.socialtext.net/futuresalon/index.cgi?large_scale_collective_iq
still at cftp?
I miss all the fun events.
looks like healthy veggies
http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/20/build-me-a-distributed-lazyweb/
<a href="http://technorati.com/tag/lazyweb" rel="tag">lazyweb</a>
next. :)
[[cite-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4267 * Tantek * (+395) XHTML Structure -
[[cite-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4268 * Tantek * (+79) Citation Brainstroming -
dude you so know my lazyweb idea rockz0r
mlinksva, your distinction makes sense. i have added it to the cite-brainstorming
tantek: my hFigure makes sense, you know it
factoryjoe needs to cut back on the joe
i'm drinking apple juice
[[cite-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4269 * Tantek * (-1) Some Thoughts -
I'm not yet of the opinion that hCite needs to be anything more than <a rel="cite" href="...">description or name</a>. Other potential data fields such as author initially seem appealing and appear to have examples, but I'm not sure it is possible to treat any data marked up in such a citation as authorative.
If I claim that <http://microformats.org/blog/2005/12/31/new-xoxo-blog/> was written by Tantek Seliac an aggregator could pick up that and treat it as fact, when in fact I have horribly mispelled the author's name. Instead, and aggregator should use the author it finds at the url as authorative.
factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
cgriego is Chris Griego and a college student studying to supplement web scripting skills with an understanding of interactive design. and is on hiatus until March to find work in the Dallas area.
hello
hi
?learn
I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
how do you mean "middle"
dead-center?
or within 1st and last char?
learn foo is bar
transistory
nonisobar
I just needed to make sure
Chatzilla was still sending messages. :P
[[media-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=4270 * Mary Hodder * (+94)
kingryan is ryan king
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00).
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=4271 * BBoyle * (+991) Issues -
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
http://www.43things.com/things/view/485114 :D
I'm preachin it to the peoples
oops, wrong channel...
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
?karma
Karma Dump available at: http://an9.org/~jibot
?def microformats
Nobody has defined microformats yet
?def factoryjoe
factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
?learn Enric is Media Software Developer and videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com
Enric is Media Software Developer and videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com
?def Enric
Enric is Media Software Developer and videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com
?def Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
Enric is Media Software Developer and videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com and a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
?forget Enric
I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
?forget Enric is Media Software Developer
I now only know that Enric is videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com and a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
?forget Enric is videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com and a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
I no longer know anything about Enric
?def Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
?cool Enric
ice forms on Enric's upper slopes
BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
I have not yet come around to thinking that a citation needs to have anything but a hyperlink and short description (i.e. an anchor). Even if other data can be pulled out of a citation, should it be used? Can it be considered authorative? It seems to me that even when you are identifying offline media, best pratice would be to point to some official site for the book or to a retail outlet description of the book. A m
Ben, yes, ideally everything would have a canonical representation on the Web at a permanent URL and we could simply reference it as such.
But we are not there yet.
And more importantly, that doesn't represent what people publish today on the Web.
The point of microformats is not to model some future ideal, but rather, to model *today's* *real-world* publishing behavior on the Web.
So the point remains, as documented at http://microformats.org/wiki/cite-examples people publish citations with various amounts of semi-structured content.
[[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4272 * EranGloben * (+117) Problem -
[[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4273 * EranGloben * (+340) Problem -
[[User:EranGloben]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:EranGloben * EranGloben * (+436)
I know this is unrelated to microformats, but you guys seem like a knowledgable, successfull group of guys. What are your thoughts on CIS assoc degree (non programming) or Art & Graphic design assoc degree. I'm coming from a fairly experienced web design background (css, html, photoshop, etc.) Which degree would you consider more valuable, or what job market is easier to get in to, I love web design, but I also like informati
it's just the CIS degree is easier to get as the college is easier to get to, the Graphic Design is a little more of a hike, and my car may not survive the highway all the time.
[[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4274 * EranGloben * (+209) Additional Resources -
[[media-info-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=4275 * Mary Hodder * (+6617) added examples of rich media, descriptions of elements commonly found, and number estimates to examples
[[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4276 * EranGloben * (+1005) Additional Resources -
kingryan is ryan king
amanuel_ is running The Intentional Web Initiative http://intentionalweb.org
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
[[rel-license]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-license&diff=0&oldid=4277 * ChrisCasciano * (+245) Implementations - txp plugin -
[[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=4278 * ChrisCasciano * (+42) People on irc -
[[media-info-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info-brainstorming * Mary Hodder * (+2118)
These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.
See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.