Requests for new languages/Wikipedia South Azerbaijan

• Number of speakers: About 50,000,000 in total. 40.000.000 South Azerbaijan (East and West Azerbaijan - Iran, Erdebil, Astara, Enzeli, Urmieh, Zenjan, Hemedan, Tehran, Merkezi and all nearby cities), 8,000,000 in Republic of Azerbaijan (useing different script), and few in neighbouring countries/abroad.
• Locations spoken: South Azerbaijan, Republic of Azerbaijan, Turkey, Iraq, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Syria
• Related languages: Turkic languages

• 1 (削除) Strong Opposse: Is a lie (削除ここまで), in the Ethnologue refers only [1] 24 million of people. And this is a dialect, not a separated language, the reference is in en:Azerbaijani language.--Taichi - (あ!) 18:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

If the South Azerbaijan use only arabic script, maybe use both scripts, as the Ladino Wikipedia.--Taichi - (あ!) 05:46, 31 January 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

I do not agree with the opposer Taichi.

• This is the language of the people who have a very long history of civilisation and saing that it is a dialect (from what?) is funny (or even silly) we are not talking about political references (not strong enough to be argued) this is the language of 40,000,000 people who are living in this real world (if not say how). This is not about me or your wishes or hopes.

• User:BayBak somewhat clarifies the situation on his userpage: he wants to start an Azeri Wikipedia in Arabic script. Due to the shorthand-like nature of the Arabic script, it is impossible to write mutual script convertors for Latin script and Arabic script Azeri, so a seperate Wikipedia does make sense. However, I want to see some more native speakers supporting this initiative before I give my support. Caesarion 13:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 2 Oppose - not more dialect-Wikipedias! Kenwilliams 19:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

This is less to do with dialect and more to do with alphabet

• 1 Support nl:Boudewijn Idema, 13:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

• 2 Support - I have heard that the differences are stronger than only a alphabet, South Azerbaijan has many words from arabic or persian language. D_T_G 19:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 3 Support - Even if it was only an alfabetic difference, you won't break the digital divide, unless you can produce documentation for both reading styles bertodsera 19:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 4 Support Azeri in Iran is now quite different from that spoken in the Republic of Azerbaijan - the difference is more than just a difference in script. The official ISO code is azb. --Chamdarae 18:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Neutral simply because I do not know how different this is from Azerbaijan. However, if integrating two scripts into one Wikipedia (as done in Romani and Ladino) is possible, I would prefer it. The Jade Knight 09:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• • 5 Support I support this approach. If research came up with too broad a lingustic divide, or that a dual scripted wiki would technically not be feasible for the next years, then I support creating a separate one. -- Purodha Blissenbach 11:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 3 Oppose Oppose Initially I thought of technical difficulties involving the set up of bi-alphabet Wikipedia, but I am convinced that the creation of a new Wikipedia just because of different script does not serve any purpose. Kurdish Wikipedia has already made use of Arabic and Latin scripts for three different Kurdish accents.

The Kurdish wikipedia is actually the Kurmanji language. I understand that the conversion from Latin to Arab scripts is not as easy as we are led to believe .. GerardM 21:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

I can think of few bennefits for single bi-alphabet Azerbaycani Wikipedia :

1. Better use of resources.(One Wikipedia for one language . )
2. Allowing the users of both scripts to co-operate in developments of articles
3. Mutual learning of alternative scripts.
4. Following successful example of other Wikipedias such as Kurdish Kurdish, using Arabic and Latin scripts already.

I suggeste the use of bothe alphabets in one Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Mehrdad (n)

• 4 Oppose Oppose (Reluctantly) I wanted to be neutral, but decided that it does not really serve any purpose. The difference, other than the script, is at the dialect level and it is in the spoken language. There is no official Azerbaijani use in Iran, as far as I know, and the language used in South Azerbaijani press and the literature is standard Azerbaijani. Literature sometimes do have local influences though, but it is the case with any language and in the Azerbaijan Republic too. Furthermore, Azerbaijani Wikipedia itself needs serious improvement and diverting the attention of a very limited number of native Azerbaijani speaking users will create two almost useless Wikipedias. My suggestion is that the Ladino Wikipedia example is suitable here and we should modify Azerbaijani Wikipedia to include articles in both scripts. --TimBits 21:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 5 Oppose --Absar 16:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 6 Oppose Memty 19:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 7 Oppose I am also suggesting to modify the current Azerbaijani Wikipedia so that it supports both scripts. As a native Azerbaijani language speaker, besides knowing that what we are talking about here is the same language except the scripts used in Iran and Azerbaijan Republic, the reasons for doing so are the same as the reasons provided by User:Mehrdad and User:TimBits above. --Sed 14:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 8 Oppose I support idea of having two scripts in already existing Azerbaijani Wikipedia. I know old people in Azerbaijan who still be able to read Azerbaijani in Arabic script which been used and taught untill 1923. Admittedly, many people around the world are familiar with Latin script currently used in Azerbaijan, including South Azerbaijanis. The only barrier is a difference in dialects. This barrier seems very weak, while there're many South Azerbaijanis living and studying in North Azerbaijan and vice versa. Alphabet and Language in Transition issue of Azerbaijan International magazine covers articles regarding Arabic/Latin scripts. We need join our forces to build powerful Azerbaijani Wikipedia. --Rustam 05:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

I do not agree with the opposers

• Note: I am very interested to know the level of the knowledge of opposers about South Azerbaijani Language. They do suggest something with no meaning. They do not have enough information. They are not able to understand the differences between a language and a dialect. Also they can not understand the differences between tow scripts.Azeri language is spoken by almost 40,000,000 people (we have wiki for languages with less than 10 million speakers). Azeri language is going to be recognised as the second official language of nowadays Iran on 2009. So this is proven by the authority that has banned it for years. If you do support banning a language, do it and be as clearly as you can. As I have mentioned before, I do not want to start any political argument (or discussion) on this page, but I am sure about the truth and need of my request. It is needed because we will have the right to use and improve our own language in near future. Please do not get upset of recognising an alive language (even if you do not like it). Reality is not what we wish! It is what it is. Many thanks to supporters. BayBak --Baybak 21:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Dear BayBak , If there was no Azeri Wikipedia I could understand your frustration, but there is one in Latin script, ad currently we (Sys Admins of Azerbaijani Wikipedia) are discussing the work involved for inclusion development of Azeri with Arabic script[2]. Having Visited and impressed by the site you have developed single handed, wish you can help us develop the Azeri Wikipedia (Arabic Script). I am native speaker of Azeri, and familiar with both scripts, I would be more than happy to discuss your proposals further. sagolun . Mehrdad 03:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• سایقیلی مهرداد بَی، سیزون بو ایستک گرچک بیر ایستک اُلا بولمز چونکی (I wrote it to show the difference between 2 scripts) Dear Mehrdad, you are suggesting that we may have completely different scripts in one wiki! If this is the case, please tell me about benefits of that. You do not realise that the people who are able to read, write and understand these 2 scripts (like your self) are less than %5 (majority of South Aeries are not able/not willing to read/write Azeri by crylic script which is introduced to the North Azeries by Russian in 1980s. Before that we had same scripts, borders and actually everything), also we have people who do not want to use crylic /latin, they prefer to use their own scripts (improved and changed from sumerian - source for Azeri language) like myself. The main fact is that our language is banned in nowadays Iran, and because we are not happy of it and fighting for independence, so having everything written in our language by using our script is essential. Please do accept that having one wiki in 2 scripts has no use for this situation. BayBak 15:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

Dear BayBak. Your efforts are really appreciated and we need contibutors like you in Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Currently we do not have too many users who can write in Azerbaijani with Arabic script. And by the way, there is no Azerbaijani Wikipedia in cryllic script, but this raises a question. There are many Azerbaijanis, especially older generation, who can write in cryllic but not in the current latin script. Then we might as well have a cryllic Azerbaijani Wikipedia too. One might say, yes why not. But the real question is that who will maintain 3 wikipedias in one single language? So, please come and join Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Oh, and I realized your page, it is a great work I should say, and you have the name birolmali.com- I just couldn't help but realize the irony and paradox of this and your position here. Thank you. --TimBits 16:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Dear TimBits, I personally appreciate people, their beliefs and their language. But our problem lies here: We do not want/we can not force at least 30,000,000 to change their writing system which they are familiar with for ages. Also I have to point that this is a bit early to have this AZB wiki because of not having enough writers and admins, but having said that in near future and after introducing the wiki to my people in South Azerbaijan, there will be good activity started on that wiki. I strongly believe there is no use of having one wiki with mixed scripts. Literate people of South Azerbaijan can not follow Azeri written in either Crylic or Latin scripts. You will see it easily in our books, papers, web sites and all other written materials those are being produced every day in S-Azerbaijan. Please take time to research and read about our past before suggesting any thing. --Baybak 18:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

I know about our past and that's why I am suggesting that we should work together to produce a useful wiki page. I do not beleive that a bi-script page is any less useful than a single script one. I do not have any reason to beleive it. And you still haven't responded wthether you want to be a part of this project or not. Whatever your decision is, I respect it. --TimBits 22:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Dear TimBits Thanks for asking, this is kind of you, but I am sure that I will continue to build an independent wiki for South Azeri (AZB). I will continue as I am doing now (reading, writing and thinking in my own language). I wish you a successful life.BayBak یاشاسین آذربایجان --Baybak 03:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Support: Differences are not solely in script. There are more people literate in Southern Azerbaijani than in Northern Azerbaijani. Furthermore, script is never only script the language has a history of a culture language written in Arabic script for centuries. Behemoth 01:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 9 Oppose - My native language is Azarbaijani (South) But I think that contribution by Latin Alphabet is better to both Azarbayjanies, because this language is same in north and south and only alphabets are different. Kurdish languages are differenet in root but they keep all kurdish languages in one wiki project. I think that seperation of south and north wikies is suspended idea . In common project South Azarbayjanies may be know better Latin alphabets and in another hand some of Azarbaijani wiki administrator are from South then they can work better in one project instead of two seperate projects.I request from az.wikipedia adminstraters for changig main page as Kurdish wiki for supporting both alphabets. یاشاسین گونی --Yoldas 19:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Dear Yoldas ; Why you did ignor all the comments and explanations above and came up with the word: suspended! please be more careful in choosing your words. Be aware of that we are talking about the language of more than 30,000,000 people who do not use Latin alphabet at all! The people those have their own language banned!. Now how and why you want to intagrate these 2 different scripts in one wiki and make the new script of 8,000,000 (that is being used since 1990s)? How can you close your eyes on the majority of Azerbaijanies and their respectfull beliefs? Please, as I have mentioned above, we must be realistic as we can and do not panik of hearing new voices that comes from the new generation of South Azerbaijan. South will keep its Script together with its past and future. We have not changed our script for centuries (actually it belongs to us as well as is to Arabs and Persians), so do not even think we will change it. Speaking on my behalf, this is going to be tough but reality is the winner of history. We are looking beyond these, so far, victory. Also be patient and read/understand more about where you belong to.یاشاسین گونی ایله قوزِی BayBak --Baybak 22:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Dear BayBak , No one is asking or encouraging to change no ones script. What our friend Yoldas is pointing out is the fact that this arrangement of two script in one Wikipedia would bring more consorted efforts by users and administrators of the both scripts, and would make each side familiar with the other alphabet. I am very glad to let you know that since the suggestion for dual aphabetical Azerbaijani Wikipedia has been discussed, two of active users, one being an admin, have asked me for resources to learn the South Azerbaijani script. This is not only encouraging, I would say this is exciting. Mehrdad 02:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Dear Yoldas , The work for the inclusion of the South Azerbaijani titles in the main page of Azeri Wikipedia has been started, and would love to hear users comments on that. http://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri

We all need to help to set the background work for the bidirectional editing, templates, messages and more. Yoldash thanks for participating in this talk, and would love to meet you and BayBak in Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Mehrdad 02:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Hi, I just read this discussion (for the second time really after some days) ... what I can say is: I (personally ... so this is pure POV) don't like the way things are brought up here. Considering that we should only care about linguistical matters (NPOV) and not political matters here I would very kindly ask to reflect for a moment and ask yourself: are you linguistically prepared to answer these question? I must admit: I am not, even if I seem to recall that there is more than just a script difference. Well, I will look into this - and I don't know how long I will take to do so. But: we must remain impartial = NPOV please when it comes to North/South questions ... these tend to become political in mind even if we try not to be political (what a sentence ...). Please take a break from this discussion. Thank you! --Sabine 20:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 6 Support -- Europa 03:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 7 Support Strongly Support Why can't you people just let some 25 million people have their own wikipedia? All bi-alphabet wikipedias always end up having most articles in one script and not the other. For example, check out Kurdish Wikipedia. I can't believe people are supporting things like Zeelandic which are just dialects of other languages using the SAME ALPHABET but not for dialects that use different alphabets.--69.174.252.80 01:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

Actually, Azerbaijani Wikipedia is already bi-alphabet, so in fact this request has already been obviated. As there are potentially more native Azerbaijani speakers using Arabic alphabet than Latin, in the long term I would predict that Azerbaijani Wikipedia will be the most successful of the bi-script wikis and can be a good example for other such projects. As for the supposed failure of other bi-script wikis, it certainly can not be a reason that would prevent commited editors from working on this project. --TimBits 02:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

Yes, I too hope this will be more successful bi-script Wikipedia. I hope it will be successful bi-script unlike the other bi-script wikipedias. I hope they get more good helpful users like BayBak in making the Arabic Script version "catch up". I think the question of Cyrillic script Azerbaijani is to use the same tool they have at Serbian, but I don't think it's possible to do the same with Latin scripts and Arabic. Their too different.--69.174.252.80 17:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 10 Oppose get dual script working. It will be harder than Cyrillic/Latin but is feasible. I'm willing to work on this — interested parties should contact me. It will probably be easiest to do Latin->Arabic because of the vowel problem, cf. this which I have been working on. - FrancisTyers 19:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Neutral: Political: I have a hard time understanding these (intentionally foggy, to me) political arguments. Is it true that speaking Azeri in Iran is currently prohibited, and that this may be lifted in 2009, if ... ? - and an azb WP would support this likely more than an All-Azerbaijani Wikipedia which would rather help raise fears in politicians of Iran, of a region wanting to separate from Iran and form an Azerbaidjan-Reunited state? Please make sure that answers to this question come from independant/international sources only that are not potential subjects to political harrasment!
  Technical: When suggesting to make a triple-scripted WP, I mean that you can write something in one script, alter your user prefrences, and subsequently have everything shown in another script, including what you previously wrote. (As you have it with traditional/simplified Han Chinese, e.g.) While this seems not readily available for az yet, if it can be expected in a reasonable time, I'd suggest not to have a separate WP based on the argument of script alone. If such conversion needs dictionary assistance, have a look at Ultimate Wiktionary+WktionaryZ. --Purodha Blissenbach 11:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 8 Support--Elyar 15:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 11 Oppose (削除) seperation. Arabic and latin alphabets are aligned in the wrong sides of the screen and hence arent very compatible. It is unlikely for a person used to the arabic script to understand latin alphabet and vice versa. Simmilar seperation should be observed on other languages. Alternatively, it can all be merged to Turkish... --Cat out 18:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC) (削除ここまで)[reply ]

• From what I understand this is actualy a political nom. I have been informed that two diferent scripts can work fine and since the comunity on az. wiki uses both scripts I hereby oppose the suggestion. In order to change my vote I need reasons that has nothing to do with politics. --Cat out 19:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 9 Support تام دستک

آذربایجاندا و خصوصی ایله گونیده دیلیمیزه چوخلو ایجحاف اولونور. بونو دوردورماق اوچون اولدوغو ایمکانلاری ایشه آیمامیز گرکلیدیر. عرب آدلانان الیفبانی دستکلییرم --Tebriz 09:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 10 Support --Antares 22:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 11 Support I don't understand people that don't want new wikipedias...I supported it 'cos, if there are peole that spoke it, why they can't have his own wikipedia?--Norrin_strange

• 12 Support This is a language spoken by many in a developing part of the world. It is important that people from this sort of area have access to knowledge freely, which may not be possible for them with the current Azerbaijani wikipedia. mm_pie 20:14 3 September 2006 (GMT)

Azerbaijani language Wikipedia, as explained below, exactly aims to do that. There are dedicated Iranian Azerbaijani users who help us achieving our goal of creating the perfect bi-script wiki. On the other hand, so far, there has not been a promise to contibute by anyone to this current request, other than the user who brought up the proposal. I again request that everyone, before making a decision, to take into consideration the fact that the Azerbaijani Wikipedia is already dual-script and this has pretty much obviated the current request. Thank you. --TimBits 19:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• Azerbaijani Wikipedia In Two Scripts Up and Runnig (Latin and Arabic)

It seems some of our firiends here are not aware that Azerbaijani Wikipedia in two scripts already has established and up and running. The Arabic script has been integrated into the initially latin based Wikipedia:

1. RtL Button tools Many features in the "edith" pages ease the use of Right-to-Left. Arabic script.

1. List of all Arabic characters,above the Copy Right message, allows edithing in Arabic scripts for those who do not have Arabic keybord.

1. Most of system messages are translitrated to Arabic script, and the rest are in the process of being translated.

The articles using Arabic alphabet are in increase, and those interested can participate to bring them to be in the same footing with the latin ones.

I invite all interested users to give a visit to http://az.wikipedia.org .

Mehrdad 18:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 13 Support -- Tobias Conradi 01:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 12 Oppose Oppose it is one language in North- and South-Azerbaijan --Juhan 19:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

* Dear Mehrdad , why are you keep asking people to accept 2in1 wiki? What will happen to both parts of Azerbaijan after 10 years? Is it possible to have scripts changed again (as it has happend 4 times in the Northern part and once in South)?. If 1 script is changed by then, what will be your response? Will you fight them back? I understand that you work hard to keep your 2in1 wiki seems working, but this is a fact that 1 wiki for 1 script is the right thing to do. Please do not push/force, advertise/encourage people to accept your idea. At the end, please tell me of the benefits of your 2in1 wiki and the goals you achived by now. BayBak

• 14 Support Whalefish 13:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 13 Oppose There's no problem already because the Azerbajanian Wiki supports both spellings. (http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Mienski)

• 15 Support per Tebriz. Khoikhoi 04:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC) [reply ]

• 16 Oppose per Juhan. Term "South Azerbaijan" does not exist. It's a forgery.--Mani1 18:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC) [reply ]

• Old requests for new languages
• South Azerbaijani Wikipedia