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both... and

ger4

Senior Member
German
An interesting thread called neither... nor made me wonder how the opposite - 'both... and' - is expressed in different languages. As an example, how would you translate a simple sentence like 'they drink both tea and coffee'?

In Danish, it is very similar to English: De drikker både te og kaffe (both ... and)

In German: Sie trinken sowohl Tee als auch Kaffee (so well ... as also)

Estonian: Nad joovad nii teed kui kohvi (so ... as)

Thanks in advance!
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In Greek it's as simple as it gets:

«Και» [ce]....«και» [ce] --> and...and
«Πίνουν και καφέ και τσάι» [ˈpinun ce kaˈfe ce ˈʦ͡a.i] --> lit. they drink and coffee and tea

-Conj. «και» [ce] < Classical conj. «καὶ» kaì --> also, even, and (with obscure etymology)
In Japanese, it would be written as AもBも(even A, even B).
e.g. 彼らはお茶もコーヒーも嗜んでいます。(they like to drink even tea, even coffee)
@franknagy Thanks a lot for the links to the babelmatrix website. I've just edited my original post, it wasn't clear enough and could easily be misunderstood. In this thread I'd like to find out the opposite, i.e. how different languages express something like 'both A and B'.
Catalan: Beuen tant te com cafè (so much ... as)

Spanish: Beben tanto te como café (so much ... as)

However this example may sound unnatural, because some people would think that we refer to 'They drink as much tea as coffee'. Since tant(o) as in the last sentence (unlike tant(o) for 'both A and B') is inflected by gender and number this ambiguity only appears in masculine uncountable nouns (countable ones will take an article).
Russian follows the Greek example here:
Они пьют и чай и кофе.
In the more formal style, a construction mirroring (complete with inversion :)) the Romance one can be used:
Они пьют как чай, так и кофе.
Estonian: Nad joovad nii teed kui kohvi (so ... as)

Finnish:

He juovat niin teetä kuin kahvia(kin). - so X as Y (too)
He juovat sekä teetä että kahvia. - and X and Y -- note that the most common word ja "and" is not used here
He juovat teetä niin kuin kahviakin. - X so as Y too
He juovat yhtä hyvin teetä kuin kahvia. - As well X as Y

The first two are the most common and the last one is rare.
Thanks for all the replies! Some of the patterns seem to be:

so well A / as also B - German
so A / as B - Estonian, Finnish
so A / as B too - Finnish
and A / and B - Greek, Russian, Finnish
so much A / as B - Catalan, Spanish
how A / so and B - Russian
as well A / as B - Finnish
as well A / and B - Danish
also A / and also B - Hebrew
A and B both - Japanese
A even / B even - Japanese
A so as / B too - Finnish

(as always, corrections / additions welcome...)
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Thanks for all the replies! Some of the patterns seem to be:

both A / and B - English, Danish
so well A / as also B - German
so A / as B - Estonian, Finnish
.....
(as always, corrections / additions welcome...)
In spite of the orthographic and etymological similarity, I don't think Danish både means "both". The best translation is probably "as well as".

De drikker både te og kaffe - they drink tea as well as coffee.
@Holger2014, I've got to add another equivalent expressed in "A and B both(AとBの両方 or AとB両方)" in addition to the existing one.
e.g. 魚料理と肉料理、両方いただけます。(you can eat both fish and meat dishes here. lit. you can eat fish and meat dishes both here.)
In spite of the orthographic and etymological similarity, I don't think Danish både means "both". The best translation is probably "as well as".

De drikker både te og kaffe - they drink tea as well as coffee.
Thanks, I'll edit the summary in #9 (of course 'both' is normally translated as 'begge') I was trying to find literal translations but this is sometimes impossible...
@810senior, @amikama Thanks for your additions!
The "mind A, mind B" version is OK in general but it doesn't go very well in the given example. (It may depend simply on the word order or another factor, like the role of the words "both" refers to within the sentence.)
If both is fully expressed in the form of mindkettő (= all two, in our sentence followed by the suffix "t", indicating the accusative, see below), you can have a combination of that and what Encolpius gave above:

Mindkettőt isszák: teát is, kávét is. (Both they drink: tea too, coffee too.)
or
Mindkettőt isszák: teát is és kávét is. (Both they drink: tea too and coffee, too.)

És (= and) seems to be optional, doesn't change the structure or the meaning.
(In fact, even in Encolpius's example above it is the case. You could just say it without the and/és: Teát is, kávét is isznak. )
Finnish:
He juovat sekä teetä että kahvia. - and X and Y -- note that the most common word ja "and" is not used here

It might be worth mentioning that the word että is only translated as "and" in the above context (to my knowledge). Otherwise, its main translation is "that", as used to introduce a noun clause: for example, Hän sanoi, että oli tullut aikaisin = "He said that he had come early".

Therefore, "and X that Y" might be a more literal reading (in English) of sekä X että Y.
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Thanks and köszönöm for your replies.
...
If both is fully expressed in the form of mindkettő (= all two, in our sentence followed by the suffix "t", indicating the accusative, see below), you can have a combination of that and what Encolpius gave above:

Mindkettőt isszák: teát is, kávét is. (Both they drink: tea too, coffee too.)
or
Mindkettőt isszák: teát is és kávét is. (Both they drink: tea too and coffee, too.)
...
That reminds me of another German version we sometimes use in everyday speech, with the object in first position for emphasis: Beides trinken sie: Tee und Kaffee - "both drink they: tea and coffee" (only with a simple 'and' in between A and B)
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We don't have a simple equivalent for "both" in Chinese.
We use different ADVERBS to express "both", so it should be prior to the verb.
Structure 1 and 2 cannot be mixed up.

Structure 1: When two SUBJECTS are perallel
Both A and B are good.
A和B都好。 A he B dou hao. "A and B all good."
都 dou means "all".

Structure 2: When two ACTIONS are perallel
They drink both tea and coffee. (It doesn't mean they drink tea and coffee at the same time.)
他们又喝茶,又喝咖啡。 tamen you hecha, you he kafei. "They as well drink tea, as well drink coffee."
又 you means "as well".
又 you can be replaced by 也 ye here, which means "also".

If you really mean they drink tea and coffee at the same time, as mixing the two drinks together, you have to say "at the same time" in Chinese. Neither structure 1 nor 2 can be used.
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Swedish:
Han dricker både te och kaffe - he drinks both tea and coffee (most common)
Han dricker såväl te som kaffe - he drinks as well tea as coffee
Han dricker lika gärna te som kaffe - he drinks as gladly tea as coffee
Greetings

For completeness, Holger might care to add Latin, which conforms to the "and A and B" formula. "et...et..." Classical Greek knows this καί...καί formulation (cf. # 2), but has another, namely ...τε...καί..., where τε is enclitic, and meaningless in any other context.
Σ
Thanks for the latest replies as well. I'll try to make a summary including the position of the verb (V):

Catalan #6 *
> V so much A as B
Chinese #20 (2)
> as well V A as well V B
Danish #10
> V as well A and B
Dutch #14
> V as well A as B
Greek #2
> V and A and B
Finnish #8 #17
> V so A as B (too)
> V and A that B
> V A so as B too
> V as well A as B
German
> V as well A as also B
> V both, A and B (informal)
> both V, A and B (inf., 'both' stressed)
Hebrew #12
> V also A and B
Hungarian #15 #16 **
> A too and B too V
Japanese #3 #11
> A even B even V
> A and B both V
Latin
> and A and B V
Russian #7
> V and A and B
> V so A, so also (=and) B
Serbian #19
> V and A and B
Spanish #6 *
> V so much A as B
Swedish #21
> V both A and B
> V as well A as B
> V as gladly A as B

* details
** details
It might be worth mentioning that the word että is only translated as "and" in the above context (to my knowledge). Otherwise, its main translation is "that", as used to introduce a noun clause: for example, Hän sanoi, että oli tullut aikaisin = "He said that he had come early".

Therefore, "and X that Y" might be a more literal reading (in English) of sekä X että Y.

It is rare but että in this meaning can be alone, without sekä. Nykysuomen sanakirja gives this definition (example sentence: Siitä on hyötyä että huvia), Kielitoimiston sanakirja however does not.
It is rare but että in this meaning can be alone, without sekä. Nykysuomen sanakirja gives this definition (example sentence: Siitä on hyötyä että huvia), Kielitoimiston sanakirja however does not.

Interesting. I wonder if that is just a shortened form of sekä hyötyä että huvia?

The relevant question here seems to be, how did että develop the meaning "and" -- i.e. did it develop from "that" to "and", and did this change happen via the specific phrase "sekä X että Y"?

Though this doesn't fully answer the latter question, all the cognates of että in other Finnic languages mean "that" or "so that" (at least that is their main meaning) according to one etymological dictionary I consulted.
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Chinese #20 (2)
> as well V A as well V B
Thanks you for the comprehensive summary! Just want to add that in Chinese we can also use:

A and B both V
Explained in #20(1), similar to Japanese #11.
HOWEVER, this is NOT APPLICABLE to "they drink both tea and coffee".

V A, also V B
Similar to Russian #7, I think.

Anyway, if A and B are objects, rather than subjects, and you want to emphasize "both", then V must be repeated.
In Portuguese:
Ele bebe ambos café e chá. (both A and B)
Ele bebe tanto café como chá. (so much A as B)
Ele bebe café e também chá. (A and also B)/(A and B as well)

*Should this pair describe and directly precede adjectives/adverbs instead of nouns, they become tão...quão.
O chá está tão quente quanto o café está frio. The tea is as hot as the coffee is cold.
but,
O chá está tão quente quão frio está o café. The tea is as hot as cold is the coffee.

Should the equality lie on the quantity of the nouns, they become tanto...quanto
Ele bebe tanto café quanto chá. He drinks as much coffee as (he drinks) tea.
Catalan: Beuen tant te com cafè (so much ... as)

Spanish: Beben tanto te como café (so much ... as)
This construction reminded me of Greek «τόσο ...όσο και» (so... as).
- τόσο στον προφορικό όσο και στον γραπτό λόγο (in both spoken and written language)
- καφεΐνη υπάρχει τόσο στον καφέ όσο και στο τσάι (caffeine is found in both coffee and tea)
It's more elevated than «και ... και» (#2).

But if you said «πίνουν τόσο καφέ όσο και τσάι», it would rather refer to the same quantity of coffee and tea they drink.
Thanks and köszönöm for your replies.
That reminds me of another German version we sometimes use in everyday speech, with the object in first position for emphasis: Beides trinken sie: Tee und Kaffee - "both drink they: tea and coffee" (only with a simple 'and' in between A and B)
interesting observation, but of course one can wonder: is that perfectly the same? I wondered about the context for both? I guess the most common question, triggering a both answer, is: Do they drink tea or coffee?
Then both [2] could be the unmarked answer, whereas sowohl/ zowel [A] wie/als als might be the marked version, more explicit, insisting on the twofold answer.

But in most languages there is no variation, I guess.
Just wondering, @Yendred: is 'aussibien (que)' acceptable as a variant of 'à la fois'?
Yes you can say:
Ils boivent aussi bien du thé que du café :tick:
Ils boivent du thé aussi bien que du café :tick:
But they are more formal than "à la fois".
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Would you have some idea of the original meaning of /toso/?
Ancient Greek demonstrative pronoun «τόσος, -ση, -σον» /ˈto.sos/ (masc.), /ˈto.sɛː/ (fem.), /ˈto.son/ (neut.) --> so great, so vast, so long, so much with Epic form «τόσσος» /ˈtos.sos/ & more common substantive the neuter «τόσον» /ˈto.son/. In MoGr the pronoun has survived as both the demonstrative «τόσος, -ση, -σο» [ˈt̠o̞.s̠o̞s̠] (masc.), [ˈt̠o̞.s̠i] (fem.), [ˈt̠o.s̠o̞] (neut.) --> as much, as large, and the substantive as the adverb «τόσο» [ˈt̠o̞.s̠o̞] --> so much, so far, so very. Etymologically speaking, it's from IE *toti-o- built on the adverb *toti- so many cf. Skt. तति /ˈtɐ.ti/, so many, Latin tot, ultimately from the IE demonstrative *só.
Turkish has a few options:

1. Hem çay içiyorlar hem de kahve. (lit: Both tea they drink both too coffee)
2. Çay da içiyorlar kahve de. (lit: Tea too they drink coffee too)
3. Çay, kahve, ikisini de içiyorlar. (lit: Tea, coffee, two-of-them [accusative] too they drink)
Polish completely calques the German construction here, which is difficult to miss. In Russian it would be plainly impossible (while Russian was also heavily influenced by German during the 18th and the 19th centuries, on the phraseological and morphosyntactical level it's more limited). In the more bookish register you may use a combined construction "a rávno i...", which is also believed to be a rough calque from German (while rávno "equally" is a Church Slavonic loan - cf. Rus. róvno "evenly, smoothly"). However, it usually works as "A, B, a rávno i C" (~"A, B, as well as C").
Salve! :)
I'm surprised to see that French hasn't been mentioned since 2015!
Neither has Italian, so let's fix that! ;)

'They drink both tea and coffee'

In Italian, the collocation "both X and Y" can be expressed in a few different forms, mainly based on the word "sia" (third person of the subjunctive of "to be", so meaning more or less "it be").

1. sia x che Y
(The most common form, in modern spoken language)
"(Loro) bevono sia tè che caffè"

2. sia X sia Y
(The traditional form, recommended by grammarians)
"(Loro) bevono sia tè sia caffè"

3. sia X o Y
(Another traditional, less used form)
"(Loro) bevono sia tè o caffè"

4. e X e Y
(A traditional, literary form similar to Greek or Latin)
"(Loro) bevono e tè e caffè"

5. tanto X che Y
(Another common form)
"(Loro) bevono tanto tè che caffè"

6. tanto X quanto Y
(A fairly common form, but ambiguous)
"(Loro) bevono tanto tè quanto caffè"
(it can be ambiguous as in Catalan, as it can have a comparative meaning: "they drink the same quantity")

As you can notice, to express that both of X and Y are true, we actually do not use the equivalent Italian word for «both», that is, "entrambi" or "ambedue".
This is because the literal translation from English "both X and Y", would have a different meaning in Italian.

"(Loro) bevono entrambi tè e caffè"
actually means that "both (of them) drink tea and coffee" (i.e., "both" refers to "them", not "tea and coffee"). This is a possible mistake that English speakers sometimes make when translating into Italian. ;)
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