Talk:Rojava conflict

Renaming suggestion

Requested move 18 December 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is a clear absence of consensus. BD2412 T 00:48, 20 January 2021 (UTC) [reply ]

Rojava conflict → Northeastern Syria conflict – — Preceding unsigned comment added by عمرو بن كلثوم (talk • contribs) 18:44, 18 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

• Support. The fighting is not just happening in Kurdish-inhabited areas. (Take the ongoing 2020 Ayn Issa clashes for example) Thepharoah17 (talk) 22:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]
• Support. for the same reason as Thephariah17. LesleyCommunist (talk) 15:29, 19 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]
• Oppose — AANES has extended beyond the three original cantons of Rojava. That doesn't mean the common name for the conflict is changed. This is WP:RECENTISM at best and POV-pushing at worst. Most importantly, no policy based argument (i.e., based on the criteria at WP:AT) has been made. "Rojava conflict" is the common name according to academic sources; "Northeastern Syria conflict" is not widely used in academic sources. Levivich ^harass /_hound 21:28, 19 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

  Levivich: I wonder whether your vote is based on WP:Canvassing effort here by indeffed (now tbanned) user u:GPinkerton who is still trying to game the system by directing/suggesting admin action in several articles. It might be wise to strike/withdraw your vote here. The reasons for the requested move are clearly given above. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 22:58, 19 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

  Yes that ping is how I was alerted to this and then I went through the list of pending RMs specifically looking for Kurdish-related ones to !vote on. The ping didn't decide my !vote, however, and I don't think it was canvassing (the purpose of the ping wasn't to get me to !vote, it was to bring attention to your actions). I think this RM (and other related ones) should have been advertised on related pages like Syrian Kurdistan and AANES. GPink has a tban, but then you are also partially blocked from Syrian Kurdistan and while that's not a tban, I'm not sure it's 100% legit for you to be opening RMs on related topics, which was the reason for the ping in the first place. Like I said on GPink's talk page, I'm starting to think that an arbcom case is a good idea for this topic area. Levivich ^harass /_hound 23:21, 19 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

I'll ignore the personal part of your edit here. I just advertised this discussion on the Talk page of AANES, but I am blocked from the Syrian Kurdistan page. Feel free to do so. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

Done Levivich ^harass /_hound 00:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

• Support current name is not ussed anymore. Shadow4dark (talk) 23:45, 19 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

• Oppose. I am pretty sure Rojava conflict gets way more hits than North Eastern Syria conflict. But also the article seems a mix of several conflicts. The page may need an overhaul to address the core of the conflict which is the dispute between the approving and opposing factions of the AANES policies.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]
• Oppose. The majority of the events described in this article are related to the social transformations (the AANES would argue a "Revolution") taking place within Rojava – which is the WP:COMMONNAME colloquially in English for both the region controlled by the AANES and separately what is perceived as "Western Kurdistan" within the wider conception of Kurdistan. The article used to make note of this fact in the lead, until Thepharoah17 removed mention of that (here --> 1, 2) after voting on this request. Which is against the spirit of such a debate, to craft the article in favor of your position while the matter is being considered. As for the suggested name, it is factually incorrect. As 2 of the 3 founding cantons (Afrin & Kobani) were not even in Northeastern Syria but rather in the North-central and Northwest, along with most of the fighting (i.e. "conflict") which the article ostensibly refers to. Redthoreau -- (talk) 08:42, 20 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]
• Support. "Rojava" is not a real name for an area in Syria. The real official name for Syria is Syria. Also there is conflicts outside the Kurdish-inhabited regions in northeastern Syria.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:46, 20 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

Supreme Deliciousness, I would like to point out the obvious logical inconsistency that you just stated: "there is conflicts outside the Kurdish-inhabited regions in northeastern Syria", while literally voting to support renaming the article "Northeastern Syria conflict". Redthoreau -- (talk) 19:21, 20 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

No, there is no inconsistency. Obviously, northeastern Syria is much larger than the Kurdish-inhabited enclaves in/around Kobani-Ayn al-Arab, northern Jazira and Afrin. For example, al-Hasakah city and district are largely Arab. Tell Abyad and Ras al-Ayn are predominantly Arab. I can keep going. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 19:28, 20 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

Supreme Deliciousness, Kobani is not even in Northeastern Syria, on a compass axis it is clearly west of center. Nor is Afrin (extreme Northwest). So while you are addressing why you don’t like "Rojava", you are also arguing against your own viewpoint on why the article should not be called "Northeastern Syria conflict", since these conflicts are not within that area. Redthoreau -- (talk) 19:49, 20 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

Another major reason to rename this article is that the use of term "rojava" is POV-pushing per se, and not neutral as an encyclopedia is supposed to be. According to Michael Gunter (2014) (p. 7): Among pan-Kurdish nationalists, Syrian Kurdistan is often referred to as Western Kurdistan or Rojava (the direction of the setting sun). Kobani-Ayn al-Arab is east of the Euphrates, which makes it in northeastern Syria. As for Afrin, it's story has been separate from the rest since day one, and saw only two events (control of PYD and then control of SNA/Turkish army), so could use a separate article. If you insist on keeping Afrin in this article, we then could use "Northern Syria conflict". Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:05, 20 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

Amr ibn Kulthoum, geography aside, the beauty of WP:COMMONNAME, is it takes our personal opinion as editors out of the decision, and instructs us to simply use the name that the majority of sources use. In this case, Rojava is the most common name when discussing the social events this article addresses. And typically discussed in terms as part of a "Rojava Revolution", which is most of what this article deals with (not a chronology of battles, which have other articles). If the article is renamed, there is a better case to make for calling it the Rojava Revolution, since a simple search shows a myriad of sources using this terminology (far more than anything else).

You have the following books ...

* Revolution in Rojava Democratic Autonomy and Women's Liberation in Syrian Kurdistan by Michael Knapp et al. (2016), * Rojava Revolution, War and the Future of Syria’s Kurds by Thomas Schmidinger (2018), * Serkeftin: A Narrative of the Rojava Revolution by Marcel Cartier (2019)

An example of various news articles and story titles ...

* Syria’s Kurds Dreamt of a ‘Rojava Revolution’: Assad will Snuff this Out, * The Rojava Revolution In Peril, * New Education System was Central to the Kurds’ Rojava Revolution in Northern Syria, * A Revolution at Risk, * Rojava, Lost? Turkish Offensive Threatens to Destroy a Radical Democratic Experiment, * The Rojava Revolution, * What is the Rojava Revolution?: Film Trailer, * The ‘Rojava Revolution’ in Syrian Kurdistan, * Rojava’s Revolution Begins in the Classroom, * Rojava Revolution - Seven Years On, * Afrin and the Rojava Revolution, * The Football Match That Sparked The Rojava Revolution etc.

Now it’s not our role as editors to argue in our own voice whether this Revolution in Rojava (as commonly described) is good or bad, but merely to document the way sources discuss it. That’s why its usage does not violate WP:NPOV. Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:02, 20 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

Oppose - as Redthoreau has shown, "Rojava conflict" or similar titles are probably the most commonly used names for this specific conflict. Applodion (talk) 14:06, 23 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

• Oppose; Rojava conflict seems to be the common name. (t · c) buidhe 14:29, 23 December 2020 (UTC) [reply ]

Oppose — "Rojava" is more specific to this article's content than "Northeastern Syria". This article focuses primarily on Kurdish-led efforts to establish Rojava as a political unit. It is also worth noting that Afrin and its surrounding area, where a major part of this conflict took place, is in northwestern Syria, hence why Rojava's official name is the "Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria" and not "Autonomous Administration of Northeast Syria". CentreLeftRight ✉ 08:21, 6 January 2021 (UTC) [reply ]

• Oppose Literally no sources describe this as such. This is based clearly on Rojava, on the region of what is called "western Kurdistan" there is no position you could describe this as "northern Syria conflict" and quick google search proves this. Des Vallee (talk) 09:05, 9 January 2021 (UTC) [reply ]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tagged for update

A new page for the late August 2023 tribal clashes in Deir ez-Zor

why are we not including civilians killed by all parties..?