Talk:Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam

I have removed some excess verbiage pertaining to the 1985 anti-Tamil violence in Trincomalee District because it constitutes WP:UNDUE within this specific context. This is analogous to a 2021 talk page consensus regarding the 1987 Eastern Province massacres, which established that since the 1985 violence has its own dedicated article, references to it in the 1987 article should remain minimal.

Given that this article is specifically about the LTTE and this broader section focuses on the group's human rights violations, the primary focus must remain on LTTE actions. The previous phrasing diluted the focus of the subsection by detailing the contextual background at the (proportional) expense of the section's actual subject matter. The revised version succinctly retains the historical context of the 1985 violence without overshadowing the core topic.

I also rearranged the paragraph's sentence structure to lead directly with the LTTE violence. Previously, the subsection opened with details of the Sinhalese mob and security force violence, which inverted the proper focus of the section.

This structural approach is also consistent with how the 1990 and 1992 Muslim evictions are described: succinctly noting prior Muslim violence against Tamils without indulging in excess details which would dilute the primary focus on the LTTE's actions. SinhalaLion (talk) 02:50, 22 May 2026 (UTC) Reply

Talk:Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam/Archive 13 We already discussed this extensively before and came to a consensus before (see archived link), the reliable sources do indicate this as a trigger for the subsequent violence. "Regarding the Trincomalee violence, the HRW report you cited itself situates Tamil mobs' resentment in previous anti-Tamil violence by Sinhalese mobs (see the footnotes)".Oz346 (talk) 09:42, 22 May 2026 (UTC) Reply

I'm not advocating the complete removal of the 1985 incident, just a trimming on the detail (much of which was added after the agreement was made). The expansion on 1985 came after I added some information about 1986 displacement of Sinhalese. However, I believe the expansion was inappropriate because, as I've said, this is a subsection about LTTE-caused displacement. Events directly about the topic should inherently have more weight and detail than those that are not. Expanding details, even "7 additional words" reads like an awkward balancing act which dilutes the purpose of the subsection, removes focus, and contravenes both external and internal precedents.

I also believe that it's poor form to have the subsection lead with details about non-LTTE-caused displacement. I will be reverting but will try to bring it back closer to what was there in mid-2023. SinhalaLion (talk) 12:59, 22 May 2026 (UTC) Reply

You keep walking back on consensus on this particular issue each year for some reason. Make up your mind. You're also trying to downplay the fact they weren't ordinary civilians but state sponsored ethno nationalist settlements serving a military and political purpose of reducing Tamil presence which was what happened in 1985.

A few words on the other perspective won't hurt considering there are multiple sections with subsections detailing LTTE atrocities. 1987 incident itself is already given excess details which could arguably be undue weight considering it was long forgotten with no long term significance until you single-handedly revived it a few years ago.--Petextrodon (talk) 21:14, 22 May 2026 (UTC) Reply

No, I actually agreed to keep the reference to 1985 on the basis that it remained brief. My mind is made up at that. I appreciate your (incorrect) speculation of my motives; I could equally argue that you're trying to dilute and shift the focus away from the main topic of the subsection. But we should be above motive accusations as Wikipedians.

Equally, removing a few words won't hurt since there's already an entire page on the subject, right? Also, you're in no position to be talking about "a few words on the other perspective" given that you kicked up a fuss on the 1985 massacres page when I added a few words about the Anuradhapura massacre. Perhaps reflect on your own editing principles as they don't appear to be consistent across actors in the conflict. SinhalaLion (talk) 01:20, 23 May 2026 (UTC) Reply

Also, there's plenty on "the other perspective" in the Background section and we have a sentence in the "Attacks on civilians" subsection: "The continuous inflow of Sinhalese settlers into Tamil areas since the 1950s, encouraged by the government to undermine claims of a Tamil homeland, had become a source of inter-ethnic violence and had been one of the major grievances expressed by the LTTE." I'm curious as to why you insist on even further detail about the state's actions in a section explicitly focused on the LTTE's actions? SinhalaLion (talk) 01:35, 23 May 2026 (UTC) Reply

One other thing as I may be busy for a bit. The table below of relevant edits makes clear that the biggest change to the subsection’s weighting was your edit, not mine. The original was 15/96 (16%). My edit remained 15/108 (14%), while your expansion pushed it to 31/129 (24%), with the pre-dispute version still at 27/125 (22%). Your rewrite also inverted the structure so that the subsection begins with lengthy clauses on state violence rather than LTTE violence, even though the subsection is supposed to be about LTTE-caused displacement. So, both in proportion and in structure, the larger shift came from your added 1985 detail.

SinhalaLion (talk) 01:46, 24 May 2026 (UTC) Reply

Let's keep it brief and to the point. By weight, I meant the topic itself since it didn't have notability beyond its time until you revived it and started aggressively promoting it. Since you expanded it further with even less notable 1986 incident with less relevance to the subsection (as it was primarily reprisal than expulsion), I added just 4 additional words of my own. Ethnic cleansing of the entire town's Tamil population wasn't an insignificant backdrop and 4 more words on it is a reasonable compromise for your further expansion and downplaying the problematic nature of Sinhalese settlements in Trincomalee. A compromise I'm willing to make is reverting to the original version without the 1986 part and with minor modification:

"In October 1987, the LTTE took advantage of communal violence in the Eastern Province, particularly in the Trincomalee District, where Tamils had previously been driven out by security forces and Sinhalese mobs in 1985. LTTE gunmen led Tamil rioters and ordered Sinhalese to leave, threatening their lives. By 4 October, 5,000 Sinhalese were made homeless. Following the suicide of 12 LTTE detainees under the Sri Lankan Army custody, LTTE massacred Sinhalese civilians throughout the Eastern Province. By the end of the week, about 200 Sinhalese were dead and 20,000 had fled the Eastern Province."---Petextrodon (talk) 00:02, 30 May 2026 (UTC) Reply

The reason I added 1986 was twofold: (1) it was relevant to the topic, and (2) background context and continuity from the 1985 incidents. It seems illogical to jump from 1985 to late 1987 as though nothing happened in between. Even the citations used to defend the addition of 1985 in the first place are less "the October 1987 were retaliation for the 1985 incidents" and more "there had been violence leading up to October 1987." SinhalaLion (talk) 16:36, 30 May 2026 (UTC) Reply

Relevance is irrelevant to a sub-section which should be a brief summary, not an indiscriminate collection of detail, let alone a background detail, which are suited for the main article. You seem to be attempting to establish a causal chain from 1985 but the phrasing of 1985 doesn't explicitly do that but merely provides a significant backdrop for some balance. You didn't address my compromise proposal.

On a different note, why did you give so much significance to Rajan Hoole's fringe claim of 20,000 Tamil civilians being executed for "dissent" which according to his own admission was rejected by Western sources? He makes no clear distinction between the numbers of rival militants executed and Tamil civilian detainees killed purely for contrarian views as opposed to anti-social activities. Hoole made several wild claims over the years like LTTE staging TRO abduction and Prabhakaran being taken to Colombo to be tortured, all citing unnamed sources which turned out to be completely false. It should be replaced with a summary of more mainstream information.--Petextrodon (talk) 04:12, 5 June 2026 (UTC) Reply

I didn't address the "compromise" because it's just reverting to the original which I changed in the first place. We're just back at square one. And as for your justification that "relevance is irrelevant," then let's put the off-topic 1985 events on the chopping block first? Do you seriously think that adding on-topic events in 1986 to a 1985-1987 nexus is "indiscriminate detail"? Finally, I'm not establishing a casual chain but rather a sequential and contextual one.

As for the second point, completely irrelevant. Bring it up in a separate section. That you choose to introduce this unrelated topic in the manner you have, along with some other content disputes we've had over the years, suggests that you have a personal grievance against me/my editing practices. SinhalaLion (talk) 02:18, 7 June 2026 (UTC) Reply

The original was seamlessly weaved into the main content without creating separate sentence just to shoehorn secondary details like your new proposal does.

"then let's put the off-topic 1985 events on the chopping block first"

No because it provides the other perspective for balance. I'm not proposing false balance but moderate amount. If you wish to shift the balance further with a detail not about 1987, my additional 4 words are not excessive at all. I say we revert to the original that I proposed above. @Oz346 What do you say?

Regarding second point, I just wanted to sort it out while we're at it. I could have gone ahead with the edit but wanted to give a courtesy notice instead. There's no need to cast aspersions.---Petextrodon (talk) 09:28, 13 June 2026 (UTC) Reply

You stated: "Relevance is irrelevant to a sub-section which should be a brief summary, not an indiscriminate collection of detail, let alone a background detail, which are suited for the main article." I'm pointing out how, by your own logic, the inclusion of 1985 could be jettisoned. I don't know why you even advanced this argument when it could be used against your own edits so easily. If you were so concerned about indiscriminate detail, the proper thing to do would have been to dispute the 1986 addition, not add even more detail about off-topic matters.

Also, please stop with the "my additional 4 words are not excessive at all." As the record shows, you did much more than just that. You went into detail about an off-topic matter that had already been limited by consensus, contravened external and internal precedents, and inverted the explanatory structure to lead with a content dump on state actions.

Your aim for "balance" is misguided. This is a subsection explicitly about the LTTE's actions. Whether any non-LTTE action should be mentioned at all is debatable, but I'm fine with it as long as it's not in detail. We have a background section on this very page where you can add that detail, one that goes into state/Sinhalese actions. We also have topic-specific pages for 1985 and 1987, both of which mention the former.

As such, offering to withdraw your own text expansion only if I delete my valid, topic-specific 1986 addition is an illusory concession. You're trading away disruptive padding in exchange for deleting on-topic, sourced content. If you have a policy-based objection to the 1986 LTTE displacement data itself, that's a discussion that can be had, but using text and scope creep as leverage to induce its removal is a non-starter.

The version I proposed remains a genuine compromise on the table. It preserves the 1985 trigger, respects your standard of keeping background details concise, but restores the proper structural hierarchy by leading with the actual subject of the subsection. SinhalaLion (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2026 (UTC) Reply

In the meantime, here's my proposed revision. I've made the description of 1987 more concise:

In October 1987, the LTTE took advantage of communal violence in the Eastern Province, especially in Trincomalee District, and carried out a series of attacks on Sinhalese in the area. This led to the displacement of 20,000 Sinhalese from the province and the deaths of 200. These attacks were preceded by violence in the Trincomalee District, where security forces and Sinhalese mobs expelled Tamils in 1985, and thousands of Sinhalese fled LTTE attacks in 1986."

It preserves the original proportion of context, avoids derailing into off-topic details, cuts some on-topic but unnecessary details better suited for the 1987 article, and keeps the chronological sequence from 1985 to 1987. SinhalaLion (talk) 01:48, 12 June 2026 (UTC) Reply

The original version was already a whitewash of the massacres and ethnic cleansing of the town's entire Tamil population that was just brushed off as "expelling" but I was willing to concede. You then added a detail that's not about 1987 and I was again willing to concede. All I did was add just 4 additional words. The whole controversy is about you not wanting to allow those 4 words. How is your unrelated 1986 detail due weight but my 4 words aren't? (I get that it's about LTTE's violations but this particular subsection is about the coordinated policy of forced mass displacement, not every attack that resulted in it which was a common occurrence.) Who is being stubborn here? Unless you propose something to accommodate my 4 words, I'm not going to waste any more time on this.---Petextrodon (talk) 13:12, 1 July 2026 (UTC) Reply

Then I'll have to escalate this dispute. Whether my 1986 edit is "due weight" is a separate matter altogether, though I can assure you it's more due than what you've added about the 1985 incident. I have always been clear that your edit contravened consensus, precedent, WP:DUE, and general good article writing practices. I am not mincing words. Your addition is unwarranted. Even if I conceded your contention on the 1986 addition, you do not respond to undue weight with more undue weight. When you do what you've done, it's hardly a "concession." SinhalaLion (talk) 04:49, 5 July 2026 (UTC) Reply

No, I won't be wasting any more time at DRN so don't bother. C. Manogaran's discussions of these events make stronger causal connection between Trincomalee 1985 and 1987.

From "The Indo‐Sri Lanka accord of 29 July 1987":

Hundreds of Tamils living in the town of Trincomalee, and in the villages north and west of the town, such as Nilaveli, Srimapuram, Thampalagamam, have been killed and their homes burnt since 1985. Because there is a greater ethnic mix in many of these villages, Tamil militants are less entrenched and vulnerable to attacks by government forces. In an attempt to regain control of these areas from Tamil militants, the army and Sinhalese home guards conducted a ruthless campaign by burning towns and displacing thousands of Tamil villagers. Tamil militants, for their part, retaliated by attacking Sinhalese peasant colonies and fishing villages and thwarted attempts by the government to settle Sinhalese refugees on sites which were previously vacated by Tamils who had fled to the relative safety of various refugee camps. Tamil leaders claimed that, even after the peace accord was signed, the government used its security forces and Sinhalese home guards to settle large numbers of Sinhalese in the very areas that had been vacated by Tamils, especially in the predominantly Tamil villages of Nilaveli and Nilapali, as well as in the Sinhalese-dominated AGA divisions of Kantalai and Allai. The LTTE had warned that it would renew the armed struggle if Tamils were attacked by security forces. The brutal killings and harrassment of Sinhalese civilians by Tamil militants in the Eastern Province during October have been designed to drive away some of the Sinhalese whom the Tamil militants claimed were settled after the signing of the peace accord.

From "The Sri Lankan Tamils: Ethnicity And Identity":

According to the Tamil militants, especially the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), hundreds of Tamils living in the town of Trincomalee and in the villages north and west of the town have been killed and their homes burnt by security forces since 1985. The leaders of the LTTE believe that they have the endorsement of the Tamil people to use any form of violence to create fear among Sinhalese peasant colonists so that the latter would move out of Tamil areas and prospective settlers would abandon their plans to move into Tamil-majority AGA divisions. In one of its most ruthless assaults, the LTTE attacked Sinhalese peasant colonists and fishing villages in Trincomalee and Mullaitivu districts and thwarted attempts by government security forces to settle Sinhalese refugees on the very sites which were previously vacated by Tamils. According to the LTTE, the brutal killings and harassment of Sinhalese civilians were carried out because Sinhalese peasants were settled after the signing of the Indo-Sri Lanka Peace Accord on July 29,1987.

These now provide a stronger relevance for my 1985 content than your 1986 content. The larger context of 1985 expulsion and the immediate motive of thwarting colonization should be provided both here and at the 1987 article for balance. UTHR itself suggested 1987 was sort of a belated retaliation taking advantage of the leeway provided by IPKF.---Petextrodon (talk) 05:25, 7 July 2026 (UTC) Reply

I don't think the relevance is as strong as you make it out to be. But in any case, none of these justify going into details in this subsection, which, by your own admission, is about the LTTE's actions. You may be justified to mention this in the 1987 page, but this subsection is not about the event as a whole, or any other event as a whole for that matter. It's about the LTTE's actions therein. You can bring up the most brilliant, strongest scholarship you want, but it wouldn't justify what you've done. I've also given you alternatives for your more than "4 additional words": the History section in this very page, the 1985 page (which is linked), and the 1987 page. Given this, you're unjustified in asking for more in this particular subsection. SinhalaLion (talk) 14:36, 7 July 2026 (UTC) Reply

Please also see my Final Compromise Before Dispute Escalation below where I have taken into account your comments and offered a compromise that I believe should satisfy all parties. SinhalaLion (talk) 16:45, 7 July 2026 (UTC) Reply

The penultimate row from May 2nd (the status quo) seems the most suitable. It provides an accurate chronology of events, and the mention of the preceding extensive anti-Tamil violence (a key event in the sequence) is not excessive or undue.

//Following the anti-Tamil violence in Trincomalee District in 1985, where security forces and Sinhalese mobs massacred about 200 Tamils and displaced their entire population from the town,[255] the LTTE carried out a series of attacks on Sinhalese in the area forcing thousands to flee in 1986.[256] In October 1987, the LTTE took advantage of communal violence in the Eastern Province, particularly in the Trincomalee District. LTTE gunmen led Tamil rioters and ordered Sinhalese to leave, threatening their lives. By 4 October, 5,000 Sinhalese were made homeless. Following the suicide of 12 LTTE detainees under the Sri Lankan Army custody, LTTE massacred Sinhalese civilians throughout the Eastern Province. By the end of the week, about 200 Sinhalese were dead and 20,000 had fled the Eastern Province.[257]// Oz346 (talk) 10:59, 5 July 2026 (UTC) Reply

//In Trincomalee, where Sinhalese had previously massacred 200 Tamils and displaced their entire population in 1985[255], the LTTE carried out a series of attacks on Sinhalese in the area forcing thousands to flee in 1986.[256] In October 1987, the LTTE took advantage of communal violence in the Eastern Province, particularly in the Trincomalee District. LTTE gunmen led Tamil rioters and ordered Sinhalese to leave, threatening their lives. By 4 October, 5,000 Sinhalese were made homeless. Following the suicide of 12 LTTE detainees under the Sri Lankan Army custody, LTTE massacred Sinhalese civilians throughout the Eastern Province. By the end of the week, about 200 Sinhalese were dead and 20,000 had fled the Eastern Province.[257]//

as a compromise, to further shorten the text on anti-Tamil violence to 16 words, I suggest the above edits. However, I do think the status quo is better and reads better. Oz346 (talk) 11:21, 5 July 2026 (UTC) Reply

I feel that it still goes into WP:EXCESSDETAIL about 1985. Please understand: I have no problem with mentioning it. I have a problem with going into detail about it and making it the lead sentence of the subsection. I believe that Petextrodon's edits violated the consensus. However, I am willing to cut down details on 1987. Please see below, I've since added that Tamils were massacred. The specific details can go into the 1985 page, and even the Background section of this article:

In October 1987, the LTTE took advantage of communal violence in the Eastern Province, especially in Trincomalee District, and carried out a series of attacks on Sinhalese in the area. This led to the displacement of 20,000 Sinhalese from the province and the deaths of 200. These attacks were preceded by ethnic violence in the Trincomalee District, where security forces and Sinhalese mobs expelled and massacred Tamils in 1985, and thousands of Sinhalese fled LTTE attacks in 1986."

Note the structure is similar to that of the following Muslim expulsion paragraph: (LTTE action) + (brief, non-detailed, and linked non-LTTE actions as context).

SinhalaLion (talk) 14:10, 5 July 2026 (UTC) Reply

Final Compromise Before Dispute Escalation

Taking into account all perspectives, I propose the following final compromise:

LTTE attacks led to the displacement of Sinhalese throughout the war, particularly in the Trincomalee District, where security forces and Sinhalese mobs previously expelled and massacred Tamils in 1985. Notably, in October 1987, the LTTE took advantage of communal violence in Trincomalee District, and carried out a series of attacks on Sinhalese settlements and townspeople throughout the Eastern Province. This led to the displacement of 20,000 Sinhalese and the deaths of 200.

This removes excess details on 1985, replaces focus on 1986 with the more general phenomenon throughout the war, ensures the paragraph begins with LTTE action, and singles out only 1987 as a specifically noteworthy event. 13 out of 72 words, or ~18% are dedicated to context.

If this is still generally unacceptable, then I will escalate to the appropriate venue. SinhalaLion (talk) 16:43, 7 July 2026 (UTC) Reply

@Petextrodon: if you want to discuss UTHR and its casualty figures, here's the place to do it. When you brought it up in an entirely unrelated topic that was already well in discussion, and presumably after you had done the deep dive to determine that it was I who added the information years ago, it felt highly confrontational. This is furthermore exacerbated considering you're bringing up an issue that you already addressed via qualification and you claim that I gave "so much weight" when I think I only mentioned it? I did this years ago so I can't remember every edit I made. However, since we're in another discussion, I can't guarantee speedy replies. SinhalaLion (talk) 01:55, 17 June 2026 (UTC) Reply