The time frames suggested here seem reasonable to me. One thought though: It might be wise to publish or document somewhere which commit of flatc can generate working code for the corresponding rust flatbuffer crate. The crate documentation instructs users to use HEAD. But if the changes in generated code are significant and there's a bit of churn, it might take library users a bit longer to upgrade / transition. Being able to generate working code for any given version of the flatbuffers crate seems important.

Ideally we pin a version of the flatbuffers crate to a version of flatc but given how infrequently versions are released, I think we could just tie it to a specific commit.

I'm all for this. Breaking changes for the sake of active development is always okay in my book. Thanks for keeping us in the loop. And I agree with @jcrevier's suggestions above.

I think we should also consider #6149 which makes things more consistent.

I think we should also consider #6149 which makes things more consistent.

I see the following tradeoffs to making the crate's version match flatc's:
(+) We work (and test) from HEAD anyway so it makes sense to snapshot them at the same point.
(+) We'd maintain a simpler compatibility mapping.
(-) Rust's version could be bumped due to irrelevant changes in flatc
(-) I'm not sure if Flatbuffers' version follows https://semver.org/ as rigorously as some Rust folk would like

Overall, it sounds good to me.

(-) Rust's version could be bumped due to irrelevant changes in flatc

That's really not an issue, since FB rarely uses patch version and we can leverage that (or any metadata). Only the major and minor versions should be relevant to the API.

(-) I'm not sure if Flatbuffers' version follows https://semver.org/ as rigorously as some Rust folk would like

I could rant for an hour about how crate authors fail to follow semver, but that's not the place for that. Nevertheless, it would be great if FB actually followed it, right @aardappel ? :)

(-) I'm not sure if Flatbuffers' version follows https://semver.org/ as rigorously as some Rust folk would like

I agree the simpler compatibility mapping would be a big win. However, I think the semver concerns are a problem. If we release a 1.12 version of the crate and then want to make backwards incompatible changes to just the crate, we will need a 2.0 release of the crate for things to play nicely with semver and cargo -- but is that a good enough reason for @aardappel to bump the major version of the entire project? I suspect we're better off overall without trying to couple these together.

and cargo

Oh yea if automation enforces rigorous semver within the Rust ecosystem then I agree we should avoid coupling.

and cargo

Oh yea if automation enforces rigorous semver within the Rust ecosystem then I agree we should avoid coupling.

Yep, cargo will happily grab 1.13 if you have flatbuffers = "1.12" specified in your cargo.toml

Given the changes coming to FB, I would be happy with a semver-compatible 2.0 release.

I would be happy with a semver-compatible 2.0 release.

That'd be an @aardappel decision, but having a single rigorous semver for all flatbuffers languages and flatc seems like a bad idea to me: There'll be far too many irrelevant "breaking changes" that are not observable in most projects since they don't use all the features/languages.

A breaking change is never irrelevant. If something fundamental is changing very often, there's something really wrong with the design.

Up to y'all.. so far, FlatBuffer has not been strict about breaking changes, in that, we try pretty hard to avoid them, but when they have to happen because of critical safety/performance or even major usability changes, we do them anyway. I think it is unavoidable, and better than the alternatives. My general rule of thumb has been that the more people we're likely to break the more critical the change must be for it to be ok. But that's hard to encode in a rule.

We're a small enough project (in terms of regular maintainers) that I personally wouldn't want to commit to strict timespans for giving notice.. I like to keep process as simple as possible. But if the people interested in Rust want to do this, I have no problem with it either.

As for versioning, I am famously apathetic to any versioning scheme that's not just dates or commit ids. I feel SemVer is pretty meaningless, and impossible to make work in an exact way in a project spanning public, internal and code-genned APIs across 10+ languages. Most of the time I can't even predict what can all break by looking at a PR.

Versions so far are just tied to global FlatBuffers releases, and we're not going to do these more often for the needs of 1 language, as least as long as I am doing them (anyone want to take over FlatBuffers releases, inquire within ;) That said, if y'all wanna push to Cargo more often than that and keep your own versioning, you're of course welcome to.

We're fine with breaking changes as long the changes are breaking only in API and not data as we rely on FB for inter-language serialization, but I assume that's what you mean anyways 🙂

I feel SemVer is pretty meaningless, and impossible to make work in an exact way in a project spanning public, internal and code-genned APIs across 10+ languages. Most of the time I can't even predict what can all break by looking at a PR.

I think trying to introduce semver can't hurt - after all, if it fails for us, we can still say we're not semver compatible, as it is now. On the other hand, if we can make it work, it's a good scheme to follow, which people will appreciate on upgrading.

@krojew to use SemVer as intented, the next few releases would have to be 2.0, 3.0, 4.0.. because there are breaking changes in ever release (or at least, there have been in all past 12+ releases).

We don't do releases other than that (for the whole repo).

Is this what you're proposing?

If there are backwards-incompatible changes, then yes - we should update the major version. This way we give everyone a compatible upgrade path for non-breaking changes and patches with minor and patch version bumps.

But that's the point: there have never been any minor version (non-breaking) releases.

SemVer would make sense if we released each language completely independently. But as long as we version FlatBuffers releases as a whole there is always some breaking change, even if some languages included did not have any breaking changes.

That actually doesn't really matter - even if we only have x.0.0 versions, the point is to explicitly state what is breaking or not (and in this edge case, each version is breaking). Right now our versioning is arbitrary, thus unknown to the outside world. Semver is a standard everyone recognizes and we loose nothing by following it. That gets more important when FB is used with languages where semver is assumed.

But as long as we version FlatBuffers releases as a whole there is always some breaking change, even if some languages included did not have any breaking changes.

I agree, the problem with a single semver is that it doesn't scale with the size of the whole project. We'd need one for each independent API surface: The binary format and every language's code-generator/library.

I agree, the problem with a single semver is that it doesn't scale with the size of the whole project.

This is the problem Angular had with their myriad of libraries. They tried a matrix approach with different versions per lib with different compatibility. In the end, they switched to keeping every version consistent. If it worked for them, it can work for us.

I still think some sort of pinning of the crate version to a specific commit of flatc is a good idea. We could still have the latest version require a flatc from master, but especially for past versions it seems important to know how to generate working code for a given rust crate.

Also while the rust documentation is clear that the crate expects you to use the latest flatc from master, there's nothing on the crates.io page to indicate this. With more breaking changes in the code generator, I think this is already confusing folks: #6339

Perhaps we could add a Cargo package feature to the official flatbuffers crate, that uses build.rs to build the exact version of flatc that is needed?

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