[Python-ideas] Default arguments in Python - the return

Sun May 10 14:12:25 CEST 2009

>>>> However, this last section really got under my skin. It seems completely
>> inappropriate to devolve any well-intentioned email discussion into an
>> appalling self-service ad-hominem attack.
>>>> I do not see any attack whatsoever, just advice which you took wrongly.
>> ...se of Fortunately without a backing argument),
>>>> 'Fortunately' as is clear from the context, was in respect to your
> expressed casual attitude toward breaking code. Some people have a negative
> reaction to that. In any case, it is a separate issue from 'default
> arguments'.
>> > attempt to bully me out of my position (recomment you accept this
> behaviour
> > is here to stay) are not appreciated.
>> He recommended that you not beat your head against a brick wall because of
> a misconception about what is currently socially possible. He then
> suggested something that *might* be possible. If that advice offends you,
> so be it.

It's not the content of the advice (don't push stuff uphill) which got to me
at all, it was the tone and manner in which it was conveyed. Much of the
email was well-balanced, which I fully acknowledged. Maybe you're just more
inclined to overlook a few bits of innuendo, and probably most of the time
so am I. However, it's actually not okay, and the implied personal criticism
was very clearly present. It wasn't severe, ,perhaps my reaction was quite
forceful, but it's just not okay to be putting people down.
I don't have a casual attitude towards breaking code, just an open mind
towards discussions on their merits. I don't really appreciate the negative
tones, and I'm sure that if anyone else is in the firing line, they wouldn't
appreciate either, even if it to some extent it's all a bit of a storm in a
teacup. Unless someone who is happy to cop a bit of flak stands up and says
that's not on, then maintaining a "thick skin" -- i.e. putting up with
people putting you down, be it through a clear and direct put-down, or
through a more subtle implication -- becomes the norm. It becomes
acceptable, perhaps indeed even well-regarded, to take a certain viewpoint
then suggest that anyone who doesn't share it is doing something wrong.
Well nuts to that. Emails are, as everyone should know, an unclear
communication channel. I've found myself on the wrong side of this kind of
debate before, and I've heard plenty of stories of people who were put down,
pushed out or made to feel stupid -- and for what? There are just so many
stories, many of which I have heard first-hand, of people who have felt
alienated on online lists where prowess and insight are so highly regarded
that they become means by which others are put down. It's that larger
problem which people need not to put up with.
However, I'm just about to go offline for 12 hours or so, and I know the US
will be waking up to their emails shortly, so I just wanted to take this
opportunity before the sun rotates again to say to the list and the original
author that I'd really like to avoid a continued shouting contest or make
anyone upset. I've obviously ruffled some feathers already, and I guess
probably this email may ruffle some more, but really I just want to make
clear that :
 (a) It's not okay to put myself or anyone else down, claiming some
personal superiority
 (b) That attitude is all this email is about. It doesn't need to be any
bigger than that.
Regards,
-Tennessee
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