koge wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:45 pm

I guess that - probably at some point down the road - wayfire will be removed from RPiOS.
Are we still keeping wf-panel-pi as a panel or will there be a new panel?

X11 will still be available though? Some apps have not been ported yet, and they don't play nice with xwayland.

See https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/a-new- ... rry-pi-os/

Because we will no longer support wayfire with updates on Raspberry Pi OS, it’s best to adopt labwc as soon as possible.

I can't find anything as blunt in terms of X11, but it looks as though its future in a supported fashion is in doubt. (My hunch that it is probably not at risk during the time when RasPiOS is based on Debian Bookworm, but maybe uncertain if RasPiOS moves to Debian Trixie in 3Q25. [My guesses, not official policy.])

Beware of the Leopard

B.Goode wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 19, 2024 2:43 pm

I can't find anything as blunt in terms of X11, but it looks as though its future in a supported fashion is in doubt. (My hunch that it is probably not at risk during the time when RasPiOS is based on Debian Bookworm, but maybe uncertain if RasPiOS moves to Debian Trixie in 3Q25. [My guesses, not official policy.])

I asked a while ago about the future of X11 and RasPiOS.

I inferred from reading between the lines of the RPL response that X11 components would remain in the system for as long as Debian provides them in future releases. I also expect that the RasPiOS "with Desktop" versions will receive less RPL "attention" for X11-based desktops going forward (my opinion, not a definitive statement!)

From my perspective, this is fine. However, users who use a "with Desktop" IMG but want to use X11 may be a bit challenged. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Does anyone have a good Ouija app? :lol:

Pi tools:
Quickly and easily build customized exactly as-you-want SSDs/SD Cards: https://github.com/gitbls/sdm
Easily run and manage your network's DHCP/DNS servers on a Pi: https://github.com/gitbls/ndm
Easy and secure IPSEC/IKEV2 VPN installer/manager: https://github.com/gitbls/pistrong
Lightweight Virtual VNC Config: https://github.com/gitbls/RPiVNCHowTo

bls wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 19, 2024 3:38 pm

From my perspective, this is fine. However, users who use a "with Desktop" IMG but want to use X11 may be a bit challenged. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

My perspective is, I strongly suspect, different. I use X11 with headless Pi and a remote X server. Waypipe doesn't cut it. So, yeah, complete removal of support for X will be a major PITA.

Does anyone have a good Ouija app? :lol:

Nope. But my guess is that until every pre packaged GUI application is developed/compiled solely for wayland (or until Xwayland covers 100% of X flawlessly) bit of it will still be hanging around.

I wonder if ssh will eventually offer the wayland equivalent to -X and -Y. And if, indeed, there even is a wayland equivalent.

Knowledge, skills, & experience have value. If you expect to profit from someone's you should expect to pay for them.

All advice given is based on my experience. it worked for me, it may not work for you.
Need help? https://github.com/thagrol/Guides

I think the future of X depends on how much of a headache it will become. If it takes little to no effort to keep it working, then great. But if we see bug reports that say "this works under labwc, but not under X", I think the effort spent to trying to fix that kind of thing will greatly reduce. That most likely to affect things like chromium and vlc.

I think it's more of a "wait and see" situation and we'll find out after a Trixie release has been out for a while.

I don't see the ability to run X11 applications over SSH going away.

thagrol wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 19, 2024 4:15 pm

My perspective is, I strongly suspect, different. I use X11 with headless Pi and a remote X server. Waypipe doesn't cut it. So, yeah, complete removal of support for X will be a major PITA.

Nope, as we've discovered in another thread (no clue which one :? ) you and I both use the same model of running X11 apps on some system and displayed on an XServer on the monitor in front of us. We probably launch those apps differently and use different X servers, though the end result is the same.

And I agree with you 100% that complete removal of X support would be a major PITA.

ShiftPlusOne wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 19, 2024 4:32 pm

I think the future of X depends on how much of a headache it will become. If it takes little to no effort to keep it working, then great. But if we see bug reports that say "this works under labwc, but not under X", I think the effort spent to trying to fix that kind of thing will greatly reduce. That most likely to affect things like chromium and vlc.

I think it's more of a "wait and see" situation and we'll find out after a Trixie release has been out for a while.

I don't see the ability to run X11 applications over SSH going away.

I see this as two different situations, for the two IMGS ("with desktop" and "Lite").

For "Lite" systems, presumably the X11 bits will ship as long as Debian continues to ship them. There shouldn't be any RPL headaches bc of this, just as there are no headaches with most of the bazillion Debian packages that are available in RasPiOS Lite. This effectively solves my problem, thagrol's problem (maybe/probably?), and enables people to build up X11 desktops if they want.

For "with desktop" systems, the situation is a bit different, and I could understand how support in this scenario could become problematic over time, but even if it crosses the support pain threshold, removing X11 desktops from "with desktop" systems won't force removal of X11 from the Debian apt servers.

I assume @ShiftPlusOne is referring to headaches supporting X11 desktops on "with desktop" IMGs. This is what I meant in my earlier post, but obviously wasn't sufficiently clear.

Pi tools:
Quickly and easily build customized exactly as-you-want SSDs/SD Cards: https://github.com/gitbls/sdm
Easily run and manage your network's DHCP/DNS servers on a Pi: https://github.com/gitbls/ndm
Easy and secure IPSEC/IKEV2 VPN installer/manager: https://github.com/gitbls/pistrong
Lightweight Virtual VNC Config: https://github.com/gitbls/RPiVNCHowTo

I really don't understand this plunge for wayland, it is nearly the same age as xorg, its been mainstream in fedora for 8 years but comes over as a very immature product with basic functionality still missing.

The sudden change from wayfire to labwc only emphasises the problems around this product.

This isn't the way that linux is going to win popularity, I have just re-arranged my computers so I can use windows as my main desktop again in case xorg gets hamstrung.

does labwc top on lxde or just labwc?

B.Goode wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 19, 2024 2:43 pm

Because we will no longer support wayfire with updates on Raspberry Pi OS, it’s best to adopt labwc as soon as possible.

I can't find anything as blunt in terms of X11, but it looks as though its future in a supported fashion is in doubt. (My hunch that it is probably not at risk during the time when RasPiOS is based on Debian Bookworm, but maybe uncertain if RasPiOS moves to Debian Trixie in 3Q25. [My guesses, not official policy.])

That's why I switched to KDE Plasma Desktop. It supports many of the features of Wayfire (natively and via plugins) while the performance is still acceptable on my PI5 at the stock CPU speed.