Timestamps are in UTC.
In hCard documentation, how does one indicate a regional and an international number?
Ie, how do I mark which ccitt I am using?
tantek: regarding the relatively recent discussion on virtual persons in XFN, do you think there should be a distinction between virtual persons (e.g. an avatar) vs fictional persons (e.g. a character in a book or film) ?
I'd be interested in seeing other peeps thoughts as well :-D
what about characters in costume running around town?
random drunk people type running, or disney-guy-in-suit running ?
and by random drunk people, I also mean fancy dress events
the distinction is that one is meant to be fictional person X, where as the other is just dressing up like person X
acting as vs. appearing as - yes I think I understand the distinction
May I have some feedback on my question.
re: [01:46] <Zeeshan_M> In hCard documentation, how does one indicate a regional and an international number?
dialing codes ?
ah. I don't think hCard makes a distinction on that level
Zeeshan_M, use standard +(Intl code)... syntax
see the RFC on tel: for details
That's explictly for international.
works "locally" also
e.g. for information in San Francisco, I can dial +1415551212
even though I am in San Francisco
and it just works easier if you always specify phone numbers with dialing codes like that for mobile phones etc. which often wander across borders with their owners
What do I do when I have two or more numbers I wish to seperate for regional and/or national and international usage?
class vs text you mean ?
would it not be a case of <span class="type">regional</span> and <span class="type">international</span> ?
No, because there is a pool of pre-defined values for type.
work, fav, msg, etc.
work, voice, msg, even.
I have these to markup:
International: +44 709 2100 100
Regional: 01604 400 500
National: 0870 450 4500
does the explicit inclusion of the international dialing code (in this case, +44) not imply the number is an international one ?
It does, yes but I was hoping there was a set of markers to seperate these variants out.
I have checked CCITT and they have a recommendation called E.123, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.123, which helps on shaping national numbers.
alternate suggestion: <abbr title="+441604400500">Regional: <span class="value">01604 400 500</span></abbr> ?
That's wasteful, I need users to --SEE-- the telephone numbers while also making them available via Microformats.
Using title attribute will assume users know what to hover on to see additional information, which is foolish.
you could say the same thing about using <abbr> for dates
No, that differs.
in that case title is used to store the machine readable form
Yep, here I am dealing with humans ;-)
the number is still displayed exactly how you typed it out here
I want to label the content properly so that if a parser which supports Microformats hits the pages can see the seperation.
Oops, pardon me. I mis-read your +44, I thought you did: <abbr title="+447092100100">Regional: <span class="value">01604 400 500</span></abbr>
Let me check to see if class="value" overrides title attribute.
that is what i did right ?
if i'm understanding the semantics correctly, what i typed says that Regional: 01604 400 500 is an abbreviation of "+447092100100"
You did not, you said
[02:13] <SignpostMarv> alternate suggestion: <abbr title="+441604400500">Regional: <span class="value">01604 400 500</span></abbr> ?
You modified the user readable value with a machine version which has +44 prefix.
are the contents of an abbr tag not the abbreviation of the title value ?
abbr title="" and class="value" are methods to assign a value to a key.
I am looking to see of http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard states what occurs when two methods are used to try and assign a value.
I assume cascading/overriding occurs.
see if*
I think the "proper" way to use abbr in this case would be <abbr class="value" title="+447092100100">Regional: 01604 400 500</abbr>
http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern
SignpostMarv, that then obfuscates information from the user.
the information they want is 01604 400 500
I am looking to firstly show the three telephone numbers to human followed by mechanical proecesses.
the information an indexer wants is +447092100100
i pasted totally the wrong number into that example :-D
just as the examples shown on abbr-design-pattern indicate
geo does the same thing
May I paste a DDL list?
Actually, I'll use a pastebin
http://rafb.net/paste/results/tTtTib86.txt
That is the markup I currently have.
*sigh*
unless there's something stashed away in the standards documents to cover it, i'm thinking <abbr> would be the correct method
So you think I should use abbr for the first two and leave the third one as it's already formatted for international syntax?
it seems the logical option, although I'd wait for it to be seconded/opposed before you did anything
re:
<dd class="tel"><span class="type">work</span> <abbr title="+44 1604 400 500">01604 400 500</abbr></dd>
<dd class="tel"><span class="type">work</span> <abbr title="+44 8704 504 500">0870 450 4500</abbr></dd>
That does seem to be "feel" correct.
I get user readable text and machine variation seems valid.
<abbr class="value" title="+44 8704 504 500">National: 0870 450 4500</abbr> methinx
I am using a DDL to do the key to value pairs.
"National" is defined by DT
ah
sorry
No problem
yes
in your case, it works, but in an inline example, you'd probably need to include the locality indicator
I should think you'll definately need to include class="value" though
otherwise the parser won't see anything methinx
back to my question then
virtual vs fictional, or virtual vs acting vs appearing
also taking into account that a virtual person can act or appear as a fictional person
"Neo" has been marked up with hCard on the wikipedia
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
wb tantek
Signpostmarv - of course he has ;)
Neo is a fictional virtual person, Thomas A Anderson is a fictional natural person
or is it the other way around ?
:-D
so with the case of Neo, you have 3 peeps- the actor, the character, and the alter-ego
then you have the stuntmen, 3D model and fanboys
and I'm referring to the game model, not the special effects model
Neo is merely a nickname for Thomas A Anderson
Neo is his "real name", implying that Thomas. A. Anderson is his virtual self (prior to awakening as the one, etc etc)
it's not his "real name" - it's his self-assigned name
in the "real world", he's never referred to as Thomas A. Anderson
the name Thomas A. Anderson was only applied to his virtual self- his avatar in the Matrix
but that isn't the focus of the question. are the distinctions between natural, virtual, fictional (acting or appearing) significant enough to warrant their own indicators in XFN
not so much what they are
as should they exist
but in that world, his legal name etc. were Thomas A Anderson
that his "parents" assigned to him
so perhaps that's the definition of "real name" - your legal name, i.e. the name your parents gave you
in the "real world" - everyone is referred to via their "handle"/"nickname"
in the Matrix fictional reality
the real name of the avatar is Thomas A. Anderson, the real name of the character is Neo
not an avatar - was his actual self
are you not yourself in your dreams?
you are not an avatar in your dreams
same thing
I'm not always myself in my dreams :-D
right - but when you are yourself, you're not an avatar.
that depends on your point of view- to the figments of my imagination, the figment of myself is an avatar of my consciousness
no that's an unnecessary layer of abstraction
you can always rationalize additional layers of abstraction with "point of view" type arguments - that doesn't justify them
the representation of the character in the matrix is the fictional virtual person, and the representation of the character outside of the matrix is the fictional natural person
are we agreed on that ?
no it is not a representation - vis a vis the if you are killed in the Matrix you die
if you are killed in the real world, you die in the matrix
both - exactly - that proves my point
thus there is no "representation"
both are the same person
you might say "it is what it is"
"digital self image"
the outfits etc. are the digital self image - to be precise
not at image... that would be a representation
I believe there was a character in the comics who could change their digital self image- their entire appearence
s/at/an
are the comics considered canonical?
tantek: canon of what?
the Matrix
oh
Star Trek books are not always canon with the Star Trek universe for example
is 'Goliath' canonical?
e.g. Star Wars comics are not considered canonical representations of the Star Wars universe
gotcha
is this in regard to developing some avatar microformat?
no, just XFN values
XFN values have to be collected from the web, or what?
I mean instances of those values
okay, so the neo self reference example isn't a good one, but Neo is a friend of the Oracle, correct ?
e.g. rel="friend"
but last time I checked, the Oracle was a virtual person
sorry - g2g, another rel="friend" needs me ;)
the Oracle was a program
just like the Agents
not in the same frame of reference as "neo"
so you have this fictional virtual person being friends with a fictional natural person
in the frame of reference of neo, there was nothing virtual about the oracle, she was perfectly extant
not a virtual person - a program
bewest, exactly
right
sticking with the matrix references
wasn't there two programs who created a child ?
in that frame of reference (POV), they weren't programs, they weren't virtual, they were normal agents of that point of view
perfectly extant
and thus able to rear young like any other entity
okay, i'll shift it out of the internal referencing
Keanu Reeves codes an HTML page showing his work history
he uses hCard to mark up the characters he played
why?
and links to the wiki page for Neo
for arguments sake :-D
but ok
rel="me" sort of seems like an appropriate, but imperfect value to use between the document and the wiki article on Neo right ?
hmm
but the spec would indicate that saying rel="me" would be saying "I am Neo"
not "I represented Neo in a work of fiction"
that's a different problem
which problem would that be ?
that is a representation
the other problem is not a representation, it's a frame shift
would it be out of the scope of XFN to have some combination of one or more values added to rel="me" to say something along the lines of "this fictional person was portrayed by me"
I dunno
hmm
actually, XFN is supposed to be present tense isn't i
it*
so i probably shouldn't have used that as an example :-D
in the rel="me" sense anyway
but people can still rel="muse" a virtual or fictional person
another example would be the band "Gorillaz"
yeah
these are fictional persons portrayed by natural persons, and these fictional persons have interpersonal relationships with fictional and natural persons
they do?
well they're friends with each other, and they have rel="muse" with real world bands and musicians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorillaz
the members of the band have been interviewed in real world media, so the band members would rel="acquaintaince" the interviewer
although i'm not sure if the interviewer would do the same :-D
heh
are they rude?
the band members or the interviewer ?
band member
I mean why wouldn't the interviewer do the same?
point of view thing
how is it a different point of view?
is he interviewing the fictional band, or damon albarn/jamie hewlett
dunno, I haven't seen the interviews
I know an interview with Murdoc was done "with" Murdoc, not either of two
and this isn't a Marilyn Manson/Brian Warner situation
although I'm not sure if it's a Spinal Tap situation
generally these virtual/natural/fictional persons problems are only a problem when it comes to rel="me"
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
wb again, we've switched from the Matrix to the band "Gorillaz" as the example for the virtual/natural/fictional persons thing
I suppose the larger problem is - are people actually sharing/publishing information about virtual persons in any great degree? If not, then its not really even worth our time to consider a microformat for it/them.
fictional persons are different from virtual persons tantek
sure I'll accept that
the critique still stands
biographies on characters in books, promotional sites on characters and cast lists, profile sites for MMOs
every article on the wikipedia about a natural, virtual or fictional person could be marked up with hCard for example
bringing up the superman example again, there's links to 5 different persons in the infobox, 2 of which are natural persons, 3 are fictional aliases
ah correction, 6 people, there's the alter-ego of clark kent as well
i really need to use different examples, but in the list of fitional orphans, there's 192 peeps
hmm. just wondering if this natural/virtual/fictional stuff should be in class or rel
which would be the most semantic way of indicating the "type" of person the relationship is referring to ?
now that I'm thinking about it, I suspect that rel is not the best place for such an indicator to go
anyone else awake care to chip in ?
I've got a little birdie whispering in my ear that these sorts of behaviours exist in hCard already- with the "manifestations" of a person
email, url, telephone, fax etc
morning
mornin'
at least someone else is awake :-D
Well, it's 6:55 here
5:55 here
damn
i just don't sleep :-D
no coffee either :P
i'm getting some rather confusing messages from my little birdie, brb
My son wakes up around 6 everyday
have you read over the discussion on how to indicate the type of person an XFN relationship refers to ?
hehe
nice alarm clock
Nice is not the word
I haven't no
unless my connection dropped while you signed on (which it does do, it's an ass like that), you should be able to see it up that way ^^ right ?
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
Going from home to my office
The only place in the world I can ork quietly
ah, well i couldn't avoid a play on "the internet is a series of tubes" thing :-D
With the little plumber repairingg the tubes when they're brocken ?
super mario part times as an OBGYN ?
No, I was more thinking of a bunch of old gags at userfrienddly.org
ah
http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/10/28/apple-embraces-microformats-in-new-mac-webmail/
Hello Chris
hi
Too bad we didn't meet last time you were in Paris
run luke run
do we have enough awake peeps to get back the earlier discussion ?
earlier discussion?
mercy buckets
timestamp?
01:48:25 - 01:57:10, 03:10:30 - 05-02:23
kensanata is blogging at http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
here it is, starting monday, one of the biggest Italian bank will heavily use Microformats in its website
link>
?
sorry SignpostMarv -- don't have much to add to the xfn discussion
factoryjoe: localhost at the moment, I'mm at work finishing the site
nice
which formats?
rel="payment" ? :-D
hcard + hcalendar
hcalendar for their marketing campaigns
and hcardfor the agencies map
http://microformats.org/code/hcard/creator is still broken?
yesterday i added an extension to my wiki that automatically detects addresses in two common formats within europe. now i'm not so sure this is useful.
i think i'll stick to raw html blocks for now, since there seems to be exactly one useful address on my site: mine. :)
hehe
Since MS Dos 1.0 internal testing have been deprecated. You have a bunch of uesrs to do it. Now they call that beta version for web 2.0
When I think about it there have been a regression somewhere : before, people usd to pay for the software they beta tested, now it's free
apart from subscription based MMOs that are patched on a really regular basis
Are MMOs web 2.0 ?
depends on how you look at stuff like There, Active Worlds, Open Croquet and <plug>Second Life</plug>
I was thiking about WOW, FFXI, Guild Wars...
Web 3.0 is a term bandied about to describe SL sometimes, and the experience of it is kinda like it's still in beta sometimes
I wonder why people don't use fieldsets more often, they just kick ass
because they don't read A List Apart
Or because they don't know them
hReview renderer: http://tinyurl.com/ykt8y5
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
drewinthehead - I'm planning to add a Cache_Lite function to hKit.
why, tommorris?
So I'm not pulling in the same page three times if I'm searching it for hCards, hCals and hReviews
caching should really go before hKit
fetch the file yourself and use the string method ...
Okay, that seems more sensible actually.
keeps hKit as generic as possible ... everyone has their own way to do caching, so lets leave them to it
I set Cache_Lite up last night, so I'm just going through all the little gadgets and mashups I've written adding caching to them all.
i've not looked at Cache_Lite
It's quite simple. You can basically replace file_get_contents with a similar function of your own (like file_cache_contents).
You only need to pass it the directory, a unique ID (the MD5 of the URL works nicely) and an expiry time.
Then, it's not a bad idea to add a cronjob to "rm cache_dir/*" once a day.
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
Marv, rel is inappropriate for indicating type of object information that may be orthogonal to the relationship. E.g. tags/categories on hCards are a much better way of labeling what "type" of a person/business the hCards are for.
this isn't for hCards though, this is just for standalone links
a standalone link, using no more than XFN, rel-tag and vote-links microformats
no other microformats necesarily being in the document or surrounding the link
right - with rel tag, note that the *rel* value itself doesn't indicate type or anything - that information goes into the href
as i understand it, rel-tag means "this document (href value) is tagged with the contents of the anchor tag"
(getting off the point again :-D)
not getting into the quantifications of dead/living/imaginary or any other domains persons may exist in, there are three types of people- 1) natural, 2) virtual, 3) fictional
although you could argue there's little distinction between virtual and fictional
XFN as it stands, implies "natural", much as every link implies rev="vote-abstain"
limiting yourself to those three types, using them in the class attribute of the XFNified link, you can then leave it up to a tag/category in an hCard block found in the linked document with the url of the hCard referencing the document if there's a need to quantify the type of virtual, natural or fictional purpose further
avoiding the need and argument for rel="puppet" vs rel="avatar"
loosely translating XFN for rel="friend", rel="co-worker", rel="friend co-worker" and rel="avatar friend" rel="puppet friend" into english gives you the following:
"this person is my friend", "this person is my co-worker", "this co-worker is my friend", "this avatar is my friend", "this puppet is my friend"
but if you just say rel="puppet" or rel="avatar", you get:
"this person is my puppet", "this person is my avatar"
when you're wanting to say "this person is a puppet", "this person as an avatar"
if you use the class method to explicitly state the type of person with rel="friend", you're then saying:
"this natural person is my friend", "this virtual person is my friend", "this fictional person is my friend"
how logical does that rant sound now i've typed it out I wonder ?
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
i'm loving the tails thing.
http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/alex/About --> it even knows that CH stands for Switzerland.
the firefox extension ?
yes.
Tails or Tails Export ?
i guess it's just Tails because I don't know of a Tails Export. ;)
I installed it yesterday after seeing a demo at Bar Camp Zurich.
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/2240/
Tails Export is a replacement/upgrade to Tails
as the name indicates, it lets you export some of the microformats to their native formats
ah i see.
it's not FF 2.0 compatible though
well, i'd use that to export vcards to my address book, right? that, however, i don't need, since my address book sucks. ;)
I'm just using it to test my hCard. :)
or to add hCal events to Sunbird
I'm suprised they didn't feature it at BarCamp Zurich
http://www.keepthebyte.ch/2006/10/microformats-speech-at-barcamp-zurich.html
Tails just displays the formats, i would've thought exporting them would've been a bigger deal
just in case you're *really* curious. ;)
hm.
i think his point was that ordinary people would not be using microformats. instead, developers should be adding it to their software, and then aggregators could automatically collect decentralized information for calendars, sales, etc. that made a lot of sense to people.
are either of you mac users?
dunno whether vcard files and import-export would have made much sense to him.
heh. well a new version just so happened to be released the day after BarCamp :-D
isn't that a coinkydink
mcknut: he had a mac, and i have a mac, but i use gnu/linux, windows, and macs.
i have a mac on hand for emergency apple love
mcknut: dunno about him.
mcknut: why do you think it matters?
right, tails export doesn't support mac by default
ah yes
but... http://blog.johnmckerrell.com/2006/10/23/microformats-tails-export-bluetooth/
there is that
just whoring my link out ;)
there's still known bugs, but please do comment if you find anything
and now I'll relurk as I'm heading out, ttyl
heh
SignpostMarv: in safari, i hated the close button on the tab bars, because it was possible to try and switch tab and close the target tab. hasn't happened to me yet on ff, so i'm not too angry. ;)
my favourite improvement of Firefox over Mozilla was the lack of the [Ctrl] + [ Q ] hotkey
has anyone read that Apple uses hCard in their new .mac mail thing? http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/10/28/apple-embraces-microformats-in-new-mac-webmail/
yes, we heard earlier
from factoryjoe himself :-D
oh, sorry, was just so excited :D
if I go poof again, it probably won't be because of my unstable net connection, but because I'll be running 30 or so instances of FLAC running at the highest compression settings at once
hey, bot. what are your commands
?bot
?answer
hello computer
computer?
ah stuff it.
jibot, help
yeah, stuff it
jibot, help
oh
I forget what I was even going to get the damned thing to do now.
tidy -asxhtml Hixie
bwahaha
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
vmarks is in NC
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
at 01:27am PDT kensanata wrote "http://microformats.org/code/hcard/creator is still broken?"
I just fixed it
verified that /code/hcard/creator and hcalendar/creator and hreview/creator now all load - please retry.
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
note for SignpostMarv, avatars are essentially just another way to communicate with other people, like a phone number, an email address, or an IM handle. as such, it may be more appropriate to simply add a "url" property entry in your hCard that links to your avatar's home page, instead of any kind of "rel". we use urls for IM handles and don't bother with using rel for example. the other analogy is a social networking p
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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