Timestamps are in UTC.
hey kingryan, any reason to delete the q from rel-tag-faq?
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4416 * EranGloben * (+16) fixed link
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com
hi maciej
hello KevinMarks
tantek, I moved that q to rel-tag-issues
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4417 * RyanKing * (+528) Dan Connolly - added overall implied schema for DanC
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4418 * RyanKing * (+456) Mark Pilgrim - added overall implied schema for markp
[[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4419 * RyanKing * (+1) Professional Experience - fixing formatting
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4420 * RyanKing * (+345) Eran Globen - overall summary for eran
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4421 * RyanKing * (+31) Interests - forgot the header
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4422 * RyanKing * (+54) Education/ Military - more analysis
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4423 * RyanKing * (+442) Tara Hunt - overall implied schema for Tara Hunt
kingryan is ryan king
hey kingryan, resume-examples is looking good
thanks
karlUshi is karlcow
[[press]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=press&diff=0&oldid=4424 * Tantek * (+926) added Google Web Authoring Stats publication
[[events]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events * Tantek * (+293)
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4425 * Tantek * (+13) shared work areas -
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4426 * Tantek * (+14) shared work areas -
rejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/
hello...how did you all setup your supybot to get your CVS updates?
rejon, supybot?
the bot in your channel
mfbot: help
uh, I don't see a supybot. are you talking about mfbot?
yes
that's not cvs, that's mediawiki
rejon, we have at least three bots in the channel right now
supybot is the type of bot
jibot, mfbot, mflogbot
?def mfbot
mfbot is a little bot kingryan put together with pieces from mediawiki to report on wiki changes and http://microformats.org/wiki/mfbot
and its all stuff that comes with mediawiki
?def mflogbot
mflogbot is logging #microformats (http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot)
?def jibot
jibot is the kind of bot that thinks whatever we tell it to think & blogging at http://hashjoiito.bloxus.com & pure joy & slightly confused about the meaning of & on sf at http://sourceforge.net/projects/jibot/ & has a wiki page at http://joiwiki.ito.com/joiwiki/?jibot & a hoe
thx...(setting up bots on the #cc creativecommons channel)
mfbot is actually a 3 line shell script :D
do you all have any svn/cvs repositories setup
really...so it comes with standard mediawiki installs?
[[xmdp]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xmdp * Tantek * (+154)
well, the parts do, you have to put them together
could I get a copy of your guys' mfbot
we're "working on" an svn repos
#!/bin/sh
cd /var/www/wiki/irc
php rcdumper.php -m \#microformats | ./mxircecho.py mfbot irc.freenode.net
:D
just replace the second line with the path to the irc dir in your wiki install
hahaha
sweet
[[xmdp-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xmdp-examples * Tantek * (+337)
you might have to change some settings in the php and python scripts
but it shouldn't be tough
[[xmdp-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-examples&diff=0&oldid=4427 * Tantek * (+13) XMDP Examples -
great!
so you all don't have any repository notification (svn/cvs)
karlUshi is karlcow
rejon, no we dont' have a repository
ok...thx for the help
also...I just got back from visiting Beijing and a colleague of mine is working on a project to gather info/contacts for other academics in media arts in china
he of couse wanted to build a contact database
I sold him though on the idea of using microformats and pushing this more onto the academics to put in/on their pages
[[hreview-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=4428 * Tantek * (+202) items can have multiple photos
so that then rather than requiring ppl to update their profiles, they could update in one place...and then he could just focus on mining these sites, or developing some type of contact aggregator
precisely
I haven't done much research on how to do, but could see some simple mf for defining academic research
what spec would be good for defining profile (akin to myspace/tribe profile)
?
for academic research, there's work being done on citations
for social network site profiles, hcard+xfn would probably cover most of it
really?
my thought is to develop something akin to planetplanet to develop a basic social networking site that pulls content from various ppls' sites (social network aggregator?)
zacker is working at CivicSpace Labs : www.civicspacelabs.org
rejon, the sites are quite inconsistent
easiest thing to do is to start with hCard
blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
true...the point is to develop some light-standards for this type of service, in hopes of raising the level of the water (for all the boats)
just adding hcard would be a huge improvment
hCard + xfn + rss (blog/media/etc)
with that could write enough to mine basic relationships between ppl., and have a basic social network service
agree?
yes
then you can iterate from thre
btw, rejon, I think I've seen on in coffee to the people before
explain
[[rest/datatypes]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4429 * ChrisRG * (+139) Examples - - Added REBOL datatypes
you know coffee to the people? the coffee shop at haight and masonic?
aha...oh yeah
Cool...I work for Creative Commons
don't know what I remember
aha...cool
rejon.org
?def rejon
rejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/
www.rejon.org/bio/
i am going to refactor reviews-formats into review-examples and review-formats to be consistent with our modern practice (hReview research was done before the process was very well defined, and as such the experience of doing that research helped shape the process)
sounds good tantekc
excellent
rejon, your /bio page looks ideal for adding some hCard goodness.
yes, I need to :)
majorly
I'm really into doing this social aggregator project...will get plenty of time to hCard out in the near future
[[review-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/review-examples * Tantek * (+4250) created from reviews-formats page
rejon, have you heard about rhyzomatic ?
its another social-network-aggregator sort of thing
[[review-formats]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/review-formats * Tantek * (+3085)
[[reviews-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4430 * Tantek * (+212) see review-examples, review-formats for latest.
[[rest/datatypes]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4431 * ChrisRG * (+6) Examples - updated REBOL entry
night all thx!
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com
amanuel_ is running The Intentional Web Initiative http://intentionalweb.org
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
Another LazyWeb question......do we list sites/services looking for hCard and hCalendar markup? Is anyone aggregating it yet?
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4432 * Tantek * (+18) Introduction -
[[review-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4433 * Tantek * (+9)
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4434 * Tantek * (+45)
[[review-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-formats&diff=0&oldid=4435 * Tantek * (+9)
[[reviews-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4436 * Tantek * (+166)
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4437 * Tantek * (+81) Exploratory discussions -
[[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4438 * B.K. DeLong * (+139) Centralized Implementations -
[[review-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4439 * B.K. DeLong * (-5) TV.com -
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
[[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4440 * B.K. DeLong * (+184) Centralized Implementations -
?help
No jibot
alas.
Wait
ignore me. Sheesh
?learn dglazkov is lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
me soo pretty
You need to forgetme first
right?
not necessarily. I just wanted to add info.
the geo crap
or did you just add that to the end with a learn and it keeps adding "and" and....I'm an idiot for asking
I call it geocrapical information
Sorry. Trying to do too much at once
np
?learn bkdelong is lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
?help
?whois *
* is everything and at http://jibot.joi.ito.com:8080/braindump.rpy and yarr
heh
Do we have a microformat for FAQS? ie semantically linking a question with its answer?
I don't think there's a format per se
Hrm...
Is anyone on efnet? If so, join this channel there.
Why duplicate?
Because some people don't use freenode?
bkdelong: I seem to recall something about that... gut response says dl/dt/dd
blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
bkdelong, a microformat for FAQs could be interesting
consider starting the research with the examples page: /wiki/faq-examples
Cool, tantek - good idea qid.
FAQs = XOXO + hAtom + X?
X?
I can't recall seeing a FAQ that didn't follow a "question followed by answer, possibly with subheadings" format
X=the markup we need to figure out.
gotcha.
brb
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
not sure how an FAQ needs or uses hAtom
it does seem like a XOXO at the outside
of "Question and Answer" items
i don't think hAtom should be a requirement either
but if somebody wanted to make their FAQs feedable, the should be able to
obviously we need to do some research, but it could be as simple as <ul class="xoxo hfaq">, and then inside the individual <li>s, elements with class="question" and class="answer"
a strawmanish scenario
that's my strawman ;)
I thougth of hAtom because most FAQs seem to be (similar to) small articles.
Robert, the problem is you could generalize that to all prose is similar to small articles
the key with hAtom is not small articles, but time based / episodic content
after looking at the HTML spec, I think the definition of DL is vague enough that you could use it for a FAQ, with the question in DT and the answer in DD
which would eliminate the need for classes to indicate question vs. answer
Actually, at least giving an example with a FAQ as a fee would be great. Then you can see everytime it's updated or added to.
hAtom might make sense in some cases in others it won't. Anyway let's defer this until we got past the example collection.
Hixie, you there?
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
trovster: I just meant it seems very fracturing to have discussion on two different IRC networks regardless of whether people ONLY use EFNet or not. Is there any logging or synchronization of this channel?
bk, see /topic
Heh, yes, there is.
I know ours is logged, tantek. I meant the EFnet one. ;)
how many folks in the EFnet channel?
No, there is no logging in that channel. I just started it.
There are 4 people, who joined after I mentioned it in the op channel for #css
trovster, could you set the topic to the EFNET channel to "Go join irc://irc.freenode.net/#microformats" ;)
I could, but I'm not going to!
# Microformats - http://microformats.org | rel="freenode" | http://www.digital-web.com/articles/microformats_primer/
[[xmdp-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-examples&diff=0&oldid=4441 * Tantek * (+112) added AOL ModuleT
hello.
woo. I'm see "you" in a few months.
i'm working on updating the lucene webservice (lucene-ws.sf.net) to be a valid atomstore and valid opensearch target -- at the same time someone suggested i might look at XOXO as a good way to describe a lucene document (a bunch of fields with key/value pair attributes)...
it seems kinda verbose, but is it a good idea no-less?
hello LTjake, welcome!
yes, XOXO output works well for describing lists of key-value pairs
(brb phone :)
bbiab
bkdelong: am now
bkdelong: tag, you're it
Anyone thought of a microformat for comments?
I saw some pages related to that on the wiki
http://microformats.org/wiki/comments-formats
looks like that's as far as it's gotten
is it legit to mark items in an XOXO with a certain class to identify them as "special"?
yes, classes are additive
though the existing xoxo parsers will ignore them
great.
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
trovster: what's the other channel good for?
Talking with people who are interested in microformats, who are on efnet
Is there any difference between efnet and freenode?
Yes.
One's efnet. One's freenode.
;-)
efnet is bigger?
I think efnet is less focused on technology
it's like the difference between google and yahoo?
which is google and which is yahoo?
limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
freenode is to google as efnet is to yahoo
greetings
Tantek: hello again.
hello LTjake
Tantek: here's an example atom entry/xoxo for lucene-ws: http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6359
Tantek: it seems horribly verbose :)
[[review-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/review-brainstorming * Tantek * (+1463) separated out brainstorming bits from old reviews-formats page
[[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4442 * Tantek * (-311) clean up aggregate analysis of examples
LTjake - yes, I think that's more verbose than it needs to be. ;)
Tantek: is there a better way to write that?
Tantek: or does that mean not using XOXO? :)
xoxo has shorthand ways of writing some common properties
primarly ones around links
test, description, url, title, type, rel
*text I mean
it also feels like some of the hierarchy
is inverted
it looks like all the <li>s in that example should actually be just one item
type text seems very redundant
the "Special Properties" part of the spec is kind of vague though - not clear if you are allowed to use the <a> shorthand if you don't have a URL
or whether the shorthand was meant to be the only shorthand defined, or just one example
Tantek: each li represents one field of the document.
LTjake - that's misuse of the li I think
each dt/dd pair should represent one field of the document
Tantek: the first text node of the <li> is the value, and then the <dl> is the list of properties of that field.
e.g. instead of <li>4
<dl>
<dt>name</dt>
<dd>chapter</dd>
<dt>type</dt>
<dd>text</dd>
</dl>
</li>
it should be
<dt>chapter</dt><dd>4</dd>
where does "type" go?
no need
yes.
they're all text/keyword anyway
that's just that example.
XOXO items and fields are all untyped
there can also be other properties depending on how the field was indexed in lucene.
sure
but all those properties can go in one <dl>
for the item
yes
so each field is a <dl> then?
one dl for the record, with <dt> for field names and <dd> for values
no each field is not itself a <dl>
each field is a <dt>fieldname</dt><dd>fieldvalue</dd>
one <dl> contains all the fields for an item
if you want to type the values, you can use classes - we have done some work on thinking about this
for now though, it doesn't look like there is any need
LTjake, try doing it again, compressing using the transform I gave you above for the "chapter" field.
let me know when you've updated the example
i can have fields that have properties like unsorted="1" unindexed="1" ... where do those go?
[[review-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4443 * Tantek * (+13) Thoughts on a Microformat -
http://opendarwin.org/~drernie/xoxo-datatypes.html is one attempt
LTjake: those don't make sense "per item"
is there a URI format defined for Bible verses? seems liek there should be
since those are aspects of those fields that are universal across items
Kevin - maybe that's something to delegate to Rome. ;)
KevinMarks: bible citations would be a subset of general citations
well, there is a unifom convention
hah
Genesis 4:1
Tantek: sorry, "univeral across items"? not every field in the document is indexed the same.
"uniform convention" in the context of religion is a way to get into a lot of fights.
Tantek: but maybe i didn't catch your statement right. :)
Tantek: yet there is a convention for notating bible quotes
LTjake, but a field is indexed the same no matter which item it is on
therefore there is no need to say "unsorted" on a field for EVERY SINGLE ITEM
books chapter:verse
therefore it doesn't belong there in the hierarchy
well, 'chapter and verse' is the cliche for exact reference
Tantek: okay, it looks like i'm getting my terminoligy mixed up -- i'm equating 1 item to 1 field in a lucene document.
items have properties/fields
book chapter[-chapter]-verse[[portion] -verse[portion] ...]
a document is just a collection of items
erm, something like that
LTjake, just attempt the transform I recommended above and let's see what it looks like
Tantek: started... :)
cool. :)
http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6360
okay. there it is, though i've lost my type attributes.
sorry for being particularly dense. :)
thats much better
KevinMarks: though incomplete...
could updated be a human-readable date?
the human readable one is in the <entry> part
(presumably 3000BC or so, or 1611)
no, thats machien reable for Atom
well, the <content> section needs to be exactly what is stored.
sorry, I missed the original use case
no prob :)
yes, you do want a reversiblr transform
it's a lucene indexed document is all.
KevinMarks: how would you add any custom attributes to that structure?
the general principle is that the stuff you want people to see is outside <> and the stuff fro computers is inside
so you coudl add classes on the dt's
i don't get how you'd do key-value pairs in classes :)
though I think the attributes are a property of the whole column of fields, not the individual record
for example, if i wanted to add "cheese => chedar" as an attribute of the <dt>id</dt> entry ....
LTjake: that makes no sense though
right
pick real examples
fine, i'll go back to type, then.
type => keyword
<dt><dd> is the way to do key value
you'd have <dt>cheese</dt><dd>cheddar</dd>
and you cna nest them
so it would be a nested <dl> for any properties
type is generally fairly simple, you could do that as a class on the dt
as in <dt class="guid">id</dt><dd>574289674895649247356457894685 etc.</dd>
http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6361
^-- nested like so?
though a GUID is a bit of a foul think to expose to humans
I can't think of anything besides type that would need to be attached to a key-value pair
wait, sorry, the type should be attached to the DD I think
well, if it's a keyword, you should use rel="tag" if you can
I dunno... either could work
though why is 'Genesos_4_1' a keyword?
maybe I'm just not understanding the impled schema here
but you could do <dt>chapter</dt><dd class="string">Genesis</dd><dt>verse</dt><dd class="int">4</dd> for example
though class="string" is best left implicit
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
keyword means something very specific in lucene. it means that is: stored, indexed and not tokenized
type="unindexed" means: stored, not indexed and tokenized
KevinMarks: but, in general, i could any number of random key value pairs to add to any term.
"in general" is a dangerous way to start a microformats conversation...
heh
XOXO allows arbitrarily nested lists and key-value things
it maps well to data structrues in Python and Perl and PHP and so on
was i right to nest on the <dd> or should i nest on the <dt>?
I think if you're going to have a term that contains many arbitrary key-value pairs, you should stick another dl inside the dt
qid: you mean dd?
yes.
yes, within dd
dt and dd are way too easy to confuse
yes
mapping to a DB is trickier
as they don't nest, whereas data strutures do
yeah, you'll have to normalize all this if you want to put it in a relational database
really, a <table> is a better mapping for a relational db
there's a good chapter on doing tree structures in phil greenspun's sql primer thing
i'm using it for a wire format, is all.
therealadam: I saw some nice stuff by joe celko (I think)
has anyone used Joe Celko's SQL for Smarties?
I'm getting a bad feeling of "encapsulating XML in XML" here when you start moving to arbitrary key-value pairs
bbl
qid: pretty much :)
well, I use XOXO that way internally
qid: how is it any more than encapsulating data in xhtml?
moving key value pairs between languages
encapsulating xml in xml :)
wrapping it in Atom is an extra thing
ah
shoot, there was an article somewhere that was going through the history of blog protocols that explained what I was talking about
i gotta run -- work's over. i'll be back to harass you guys later. :)
thanks for the help thus far!
I could've sworn it was on xml.com...
was it by markp by any chance?
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/10/15/dive.html <-- here it is
"So we've reinvented XML, over RPC, over XML. Badly."
of course, markp always reports on the best-case scenario :)
factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
darn LTjake left
i'm not sure about <dl class="xoxo">
i think this should be <ul class="xoxo">
and then for the item, use the text
<li>And the man knew...
and then inside that <li>
include the <dl> with the rest of the properties
and that should just about do it
ok, back to hReview work
well, I got the impression he was using this as a wire format for some row in a table
so he explicity wanted those key-value pairs
sure
those go in the <dl> as he has them
in XOXO, there are a handful of "special" keys that get optimized in the markup
but then the sub-key-value-pairs attached to a key-value pair is a little weird
see the XOXO spec for details
my point was that the sub-key-value-pairs are both unnecessary and undesirable at that point in the data
since the sub-key-value-pairs are same for that field on all items
well if he does <ul class="xoxo"> with a <dl> inside the <li>, now it's always a list of one item... so why have the list...
the presumption is he might return more than one item
and yes, the minimal XOXO document is a list of one item :)
well, with the format example he used, it looked like it was intended to be just a single item
i thought the single item aspect was just for the purpose of the example
not the general rule
hey is Benjamine Carlyle here?
why use XOXO for a wire format?
dglazkov, easier to debug etc.
avoids having to write a DTD
etc.
I guess ...
I use it for a wire format a lot
to pass data structures cross language
it is kind of neat that you could have a XOXO format list and have the same document be both machine-parsable and suitable for display to humans when styled with CSS
KevinMarks: arbitrary data structures?
so given that, even when using it in a "pure wire format" context you may as well use a format that will enable future display to humans
kingryan is ryan king
othermaciej, that's only obvious once you "get it", until then it is very non-obvious to most folks, especially programmers.
well, ones without a strong binary component
another reason is that many "wire" formats evolve into something that is eventually displayed to the user
well one place where this especially strikes me as useful is things like blogrolls
no need to import/export OPML
just have the blogroll *be* XOXO
no import/export step
another reason is that many "wire" formats actually represent human level data, so why not keep it human friendly?
it seems so obviously right
precisely othermaciej
in many ways, XOXO proved that OPML was never necessary as "yet another specialty XML format"
5~5~/quit
it is very handy to be able to just dump the data structure into a browser
the whole tendency by programmers/architects to keep coming up with specialty XML formats has been acknolwedged by Tim Bray as a very bad tendency, and one to be avoided
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/01/08/No-New-XML-Languages
why would you need JS to fancify your XOXO?
(I'm a JavaScript guru but I don't see why you would need it)
unless you want to make a collapsable list or something
Doing stuff like this. http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/
really the best thing for that would be XBL/HTC
but those aren't portable enough to use
Atamido: you could do that with pretty minimal javascript and some CSS
Atamido: here's what I'd do
just use chris holland's script
give the li with the disclosure triangle class="collapsible"
thats part of the point of standardising class names
and an onclick handler that adds class "collapsed" if present, removes otherwise
his js will work on your xoxo
or something like that
I need an effect a bit more complex than what Chris is providing.
But it is still far down on my todo list.
les orchard did one that enabled editing
I have other, more pressing matters.
well, use chris's in the meantime
then you can have CSS rules that give appropriate list marker images for li.collapsible.collapsed and li.collapsible
and you can have li.collapsible.collapsed ul { display: none; }
which will automatically hide sublists when you set the right class
this would be a trivial script
like maybe 5 or 6 lines of JS
if you have the right CSS rules
(no idea how chris holland's script works or if XOXO has standard ways of representing collapse/expand)
better, do the 'collapsible' at the <ol> level
class="compact" means collapsed
in the page linked, the title still shows
so you'd probably need a :first-child rule
to make that not hide
http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/outlines.js
that looks surprisingly complicated
also extremely weird to set a mouseup handler on the document as the way to catch clicks
(because (a) why not onclick and (b) why not on the individual elements affected by click)
also setting window.onload is bad because it will fight with any inline onload handler set on the body
Not using onclick drastically simplifies the HTML.
how is it any simpler than using onmouseup?
the point is the JS decorates the XOXO to add the handlers
I get that, it's just doing it wrong
using wrong event, attaching event to wrong object
sorry, that was for Atamido
you pass in XOXO, call a script and it makes it active
oh I see, html4 has a standard compact attribute
(though I have no idea what UAs do with it)
is there a stylesheet meant to go with this?
i thought Les Orchard's presentation of XOXO was quite good
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please take a look. If you have additional issues or feedback, add them respectively to the /wiki/hreview-issues and /wiki/hreview-feedback pages
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bbiab
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
tara is Miss HorsePigCow (http://www.horsepigcow.com/) and the alter-ego of missrogue
hi tara
welcome Tara
Hey Tara ;)
hello Tantek
hello kevinmarks
hello enric
How's it going, t?
good...busy at work (although I'm taking a wee break to chat with my friends and check in on the whole world of Microformats)
KevinMarks: I came up with a much nicer / simpler version of chris holland's collapsible list thingie
KevinMarks: should I put it somewhere?
othermaciej, definitely
KevinMarks: turns out that the compact attribute on lists is not really a good thing to use in this case
why?
tantek: you want the style of the li containing the list to change on collapse
the spec even has the CSS necessary to make it work ;)
tantek: and CSS selectors can't be based on attributes of your children
hmm...
I did this:
li.collapsible.collapsed {
list-style-image:url('http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/img/triangle.gif')
}
li.collapsible {
why not have the nested list draw the triangle?
list-style-image:url('http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/img/triangle_down.gif')
}
because the nested list is what actually indicates that there *should* be a triangle
not the containing list item
i.e.
you could do that, if you made the list collapse to the first item
existence of nested ul/ol ----> draw a triangle
rather than being contained in an li that has the heading that's not part of the list
does the nested ul/ol have compact attribute? ----> draw the triangle "closed"
but you then couldn't use bullets at all on list items
because you would get a bullet and then a triangle inside
I wish we had lisppaste in here
the point is
you don't want bullets on all list items in an outline
bullets on leaf list items in an outline are noise
visual noise
e.g. look at a Finder list view
I agree (they are certainly not there in OS X outline views, which is the style I like)
notice that non-folders lack anything like "bullets"
right
ok I'll do a version that precludes bullets
problem solved ;)
still need somewhere to paste it when done
you mean like a site to upload some HTML?
well, mostly I'd like to show the source
I don't have a working one right now
mac.com
I could put it on the wiki as source
I didn't do dl support yet though so it wouldn't be that great
tantek: so you think lists should collapse to their first item?
tantek: rather than there being a separate header outside the list?
cause that seems semantically wrong to me
yeah, see, looking at the xoxo example here: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Simple_XOXO_Fragment
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