Timestamps are in UTC.
[[requirements-testing-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/requirements-testing-examples * MarkRickerby * (+3182) moved test language examples to separate page
[[requirements-testing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requirements-testing&diff=0&oldid=3302 * MarkRickerby * (-3710)
[[requirements-testing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requirements-testing&diff=0&oldid=3303 * MarkRickerby * (-57)
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=3304 * MarkRickerby * (+35) Exploratory discussions: requirements-testing-examples
tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
regarding people using microformats for to-do lists, check this out: http://markbernstein.org/Dec0501.html#note_36673
tantek will you be at the Technical Plenary in March?
[[attention-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-formats&diff=0&oldid=3305 * Tantek * (+1) Attention Formats -
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/blog/4
uh oh, tbl has a blog
oh man
where?
oh
duh
;)
on drupal!
hey, i themed his calendar!
w00t!
sorry for the slightly off-topic, I hope I will not be burnt
tbl's not off topic
:D
[[attention]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/attention * Tantek * (+654)
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=3306 * Tantek * (+52) Exploratory discussions -
Karl, very cool. Who finally pushed TBL over the edge to starting a blog?
[[attention-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-examples&diff=0&oldid=3307 * Tantek * (+81) Attention Examples -
[[attention-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-formats&diff=0&oldid=3308 * Tantek * (+81) Attention Formats -
[[attention-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3309 * Tantek * (+80) Attention Brainstorming -
[[attention-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3310 * Tantek * (+13) Definite -
tantek: a few of us inside the W3C Team. There is more to come ;) you will see
http://www.w3.org/2005/06/poak/
Tantek: what's the relationship between XOXO and definition lists?
hey factoryjoe
;)
so does XOXO relate to DLs?
yes
ok
how?
XOXO uses DL for arbitrary properties on items
ah ha
ij
ok
that sounds right
drumm is Neil and blogs at http://delocalizedham.com/ and is the lead developer for CivicSpace (its like DeanSpace, but better) and a crankypants
jibot: thats still all wrong
heh
?forget drumm
I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
damn
factoryjoe, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Properties_of_Outline_Items
mm
tantek: my connections to microformats.org are timing out
this was a drumm question
mine aren't
tantek: basically I'm trying to get a generic label/data themable function into Drupal. The last couple times I tried using <dl> people said that wasn't a valid use of those tags
drumm: don't listen to other people
it's the most semantic thing you've got in xhtml
obviously you'd use a label in there too
factoryjoe: open source is all about consensus. sometimes you have to listen to people to get that.
label?
<dt><label>foo</label></dt>?
right
factoryjoe: aren't labels only for forms?
drumm: while i agree in principal, design by committee fails
but regardless
[[attention-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3311 * Tantek * (+115) See Also -
i think using dls is fine
right, but I want something better to cite than "factoryjoe says so"
no, can't use <label> like that
i tried but it's wrong
?!
really?
<label> is only for form elements
yes
can't even use it for <img/>
well yeah
like as an image caption etc.
I knew it! design by comittee works.
you use the label inside a dt inside a form for an input
drumm is right
drumm, this is for a form, n'est-ce pas?
drumm, what is the problem with using DLs?
what is the specific objection?
factoryjoe: nope, just plain old data
tantek: just want something strong t cite since the w3c spec is unclear on this
I know someone will disagree
actually W3C spec is clear if you read it very carefully
W3C spec gives precise definition for DL/DT/DD
and then throws in a completely random example from left-field
oh alright
that's fine then
heh, need a clear interpretation
i presumed it was a form
ok
and people remember the random example unfortunately
the trick is
that examples in W3C specs are *informative* only
not *normative*
and thus if the example disagrees or otherwise violates the other part of the spec
then the example is wrong
and the definitions in the spec are right
I find that's sort of pissing-in-the-wind. As you say, people pay attention to the examples, so it's important to get them right
DanC, true, it is important to get them right.
DanC: yes but the specs should specifically identified what is normative and what is not :)
But *when* mistakes are made, we need to be up front about how to interpret them. ;)
karlUshi++
and pissing in the wind ;) is fine if you have the wind in your back btw ;)
normative shmormative. What matters is the understanding that people take away
the question is whether it's more cost-effective to fix old specs or write "how to decode W3C specs" articles
http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#norm-informative-gp
now what about factoryjoe's forms marked up with <dl>? I remember him being very excited about doing that in his theme a long time ago. During that phase where he saw everything as a <dl>
dl = definition list
dt = definition term
I find the "Why care?" rationale for #norm-informative-gp completely un-persuasive
dd = definition description
DanC: You can't cover all examples cases in a specification :) It's why I wish that there was with each specification a kind of Good Practices guide. That would help a lot to have a non normative reference of accumulated use cases
And that could be updated time to time
rather than saying "make sure people can tell the normative from the informative", I'd just say "be careful to make your spec consistent. Consider making test cases out of all your examples so that they'll be checked by machine."
implementers-guide++
that was actually done for Atom
yep joe :)
yeah, what about that?
oh? I don't recall seeing the Atom implemetor's guide...
was i off my rocker?
and not able to read specs?
no, not the implementers guide
DanC: And you requirement is covered here too ;) http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#write-sample-gp
the automatic checking of spec examples against the RNC
QA Frame Spec is not a law, but a tool for people to help write specifications. It's the cool aspect of it
but what's cool about #norm-informative-gp ?
how does it help?
it doesn't, it reads like an excuse, do as we say not as we do...
quite
it helps people to not stay in a square box. I call it the "first time syndrome"
You give an example or something which is done in one way, and everyone will stay in the limit of this example
even if there's more than one way of doing or using it
the first time someone reads a spec they scan from beginning to end looking for charts, diagrams and examples
yes joe.
yup. I skip over all the crud before the hello-world example
karlUshi: yes joe, i was off my rocker?
ok
for lots of specs, I hit the end of the spec before i find hello-world. :(
if you're lucky they'll actually read some of the spec text, but only after their their first pass fails the validator
I hate the hello world example ;) as much as the FOAF example for RDF ;)
you hate the hello world example? I think that disqualifies you from helping people read specs
the RDF primer is an example in HOW NOT TO WRITE SPECS
people learn by examples
the spec text is for lawyering when implementations don't interop
interestingly, I've had this very debate (about the successive-elaboration-by-example style vs exhaustive enumeration) with the SPARQL editors...
DanC: agreed for RDF Primer. I tried to translate it in French. Very very very bad
there is an unfortunate trend towards making specs dry, lifeless and rigid
is Kendall an editor of that?
editor of Sparql, that is...
I convinced the editor of http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/ but for http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-protocol/ , I only got the editor to put lots of examples at the end
"Hello world" example hate: explanation -> Because it's always the same boring example, no variations, no imagination, putting people in Boxes. It's why.
A good spec should read like the old RFC's
at least, if it was written "Bonjour le monde"
you read them and they're like sitting across from Jon Postel and he's explaining to you how to implement the protocol
and occastionally scribbling a diagram on the back of an envelope during the discussion
really, jcgregorio ? I don't recall any/many RFCs like that. I find RFCs to be the other extremem, by and large. Can you think of an example?
the really oooold ones, like TCP/IP
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa/2005Jul/0006.html
that was an interesting thread too.
jcgregorio: many of the specs are indeed too dry they don't tell stories, they don't give the idea of what is the value of the language
my mantra is "story telling and test cases". some days I think the spec is hardly worth writing down
yes
793 is a good example
"""At a gateway between networks, the internet datagram is "unwrapped"
from its local packet and examined to determine through which network
the internet datagram should travel next. The internet datagram is
then "wrapped" in a local packet suitable to the next network and
routed to the next gateway, or to the final destination.
"""
now you couldn't write that today without a having to include a thesis on the definition of "unwrapped" and "wrapped"
There clearly aren't enough Postels to go around. I like Guy Steele's Java spec too.
note that RFC793 wasn't the 1st draft of a TCP spec; it cites a 1974 design document
Maybe every spec should be re-written 7 years after the original design/deployment ;-)
I like that rule
RFC793 has diagrams with ftp and such on top; i.e. they had lots of experience with TCP in context
yeah, rough concensus and running code goes a loooong way
hmm... the HTML 4 spec was largely a rewrite by a professional tech writer, but it almost feels like it's time to do it again
DanC: spec fixed, and there should be a perpetual guide of implementation and recipes. Somehow I like the way PHP site has done it. Far to be perfect, but there's an idea I like about it. A part of the spec of the language and a forum under it. It could be even a wiki and/or a list of weblog post aggregation
html 4.01 spec rewriting ++
well, one perspective is that there *is* a perpetual guide of implementation and recipies for HTML; visit your local bookstore.
the question is: how much of that should W3C try to... organize/control/steer
not control, put the platform for it
er... platform... like the web?
a bit like esw.w3.org
yes, let's not cut into the money I make writing for XML.com :)
ahaha joe ;)
but why esw.W3.ORG? why not xml.com and ora.com and the like?
W3C owns/controls esw.w3.org
Danc: very simple answer
people wants a point of reference, no matter what you do they want to find a reference information
see the discussion which has happened before between joe and drum
:)
DanC: I'm surprised Tantek didn't cut off the discussion yet ;)
There's a #w3c channel on freenode as well
yes, people would like W3C to give them a handy and correct answer to every question that they have. But is it realistic for us to try? Isn't it *better* to do a good job for a smaller audience, and make it clear that the larger audience should try google or their local bookstore/user-group/classroom?
DanC have you seen the number of books which tells crap
so the Atom Syndication Format doc should have just been an RNC?
no, really? there are crappy books? I had _no idea_.
At least once a month I go to a bookstore to the computing section and starts to look at the books
For HTML, it's like banging the head on the table
DanC: ;)
karlUshi, are you familiar with Sturgeon's Law? http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/s/SturgeonsLaw.html why would you expect your local bookstore to be exempt?
And university/class curriculum is even worse
A good gastronomy law
ok, i'm out
cya
I go the bookstore to the computing section and get scared by all the people on the covers of wrox books looking out at me
ahaha
:D
just an RNC... hmm... good question... in some sense, yes... but... the rest of the spec is there for social reasons... it's an artifact that is the result of the consensus process.
hmm, maybe I should come up with an RNC like grammar for HTTP transactions
well... I suppose a really excellent spec is all three: (1) the facts/RNC (2) the words that demonstrate consent of the governed (3) an effective teaching artifact
http://www.google.com/search?q=rnc
hmmm
that plus RNC and I could boil the Atom Publishing Protocol down into a single page
Relax-NG compact
sorry
oooh thanks
DanC: family time is more important
a part of me is always searching for the most concise formal description of something... but (2) and (3) are important too
yeah, we'll always be here
kingryan is ryan king
delicious is still down :(
amanuel_: try blogmarks.net :)
heh perhaps after I get my data off them :)
amanuel_: hey. are we done with that drupal-devel theme debate yet? :)
?
drumm: theme?
hey we are talking in microformats :) didn't know you hang here too
amanuel_: nevermind. wrong drupal person. was just suprised to find you here too
well there is cools stuff happening here too :)
drumm: ??? :) Right now I have 15 IRC channels open on my xchat
I usually top out at 3-4 anymore than that, the universe tends to get everyone to start talking stuff of interest at the same time.
ahaha ;) because you actually read them ;)
;)
http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/wlg/8715
Are we getting stupid?
I don't think simplicity makes you dumb
which is for all intents and purposes is a single text box
I wonder if google will ever go with a giant text box and button
from which i can find any document on the web, look up an address, find pizza, or even do math
it takes *a lot* of effort to make an interface that simple and effortless
and a small army of deveopers, computer scientists, linguists, etc
jcgregorio: Google is not anymore one web site either. But many Web site. But the search box is indeed simple. These days I have started to try using Altavista again
hello
http://www.coolweblog.com/bilodeau/archives/001707.html
hello neuro`
Hello Karl
ooops
:)
karlUshi: that link you just posted.... the man has a point
was faqs.org finally
amanuel_: definitely, structured information is good, but for the benefits of who? More marketing profiling? I'm pretty sure all of us don't want that.
well we here dont however the masses could be swayed easily with such simplistic view....it happens all the time
I like microformats in the way that they could help to get better indexes for my information, that locally I can find more stuff or with my friends, sharing content in a more intelligent, but not at the price of being yet another *consumers* filling a form for free for a marketing profiler.
for now the benefit is clearly and strongly bent towards aggregators and search engines
not that much toward users
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[[attention-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-formats&diff=0&oldid=3312 * Kevin Marks * (+74) Explicit Attention Formats -
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
[[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3313 * Charles * (+381) Added another strawman model
[[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3314 * Charles * (+129) updated Orthogonal Concepts
[[show-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3315 * Charles * (+1) added a bit more spacing
tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3316 * Charles * (+273) Added more to strawman #9
[[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3317 * Charles * (+136) Added more to strawman #9
Hello
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com - Is At ApacheCon
factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp and Rhyzomatic and is working towards open source world domination
Morning, Chris
mornin
;)
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/002215.html
trv is a web-standards developer from the UK and writes at www.trovster.com
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
t1m is http://tim.textdriven.com
factoryjoe: that is a sad link you posted about SB flopping
yeah
figured we ought respond
I think the we have to find a way to have people doing SB for selfish reasons.
well it's just gotta be really really easy
SB?
oh OK
factoryjoe: no it has to go beyond easy.
it has to benefit the blogger in some way
yes, of course
it's a chicken and egg problem
(as usual)
yup. :)
however
flock is helping build the egg
so flock is the chicken ? :)
:P
hehehehe
we'll see
ok, lunch time
k
bbiab
tantek: is there any particular reason hCalendar is specifically XHTML ?
(as opposed to being applicable to HTML also)
it's all compatible XHTML
per XHTML 1.0 Appendix C
thus usable in both XHTML and HTML
seems like it should just be defined in terms of the DOM
humans first, programmers second
it's easier for content authors if we define things in terms of (X)HTML
that matters more than defining it precisely in terms of the DOM for programmers
the content authoring requirements should be in terms of HTML, sure
i meant the parsing requirements
Hixie_, consider adding to the Issues section on the hcard-parsing spec
(fwiw, if it gets embedded into HTML5 it'll all be defined in terms of the DOM, since HTML5 is being defined in terms of the DOM, with a section on how to go DOM<->text serialisation)
k
tantek: you might want to call out the fact that's it usable as HTML specifically in the spec
tantek: otherwise folks such as me who aren't standards experts are likely to feel constrained to actually write out XHTML
uh
the wiki won't let me create a user
it's said "invalid username" for "hixie", "ian.hickson", and "hixiedapixie"
Hixie_ see faq ;)
there is no faq link on this page
heh "hixiedapixie"
Hixie_, UserNames MuSt be WikiWords
dmose, you should feel pressured to write out XHTML
couldn't someone just give me a plain regexp i have to match :-P
HixieDaPixie should work
tantek: boy, another standards expert i know recently told me that that's not the case
man, that was much harder than it should have been
dmose, name names
just did :-)
how about /[A-Z][a-z]+([A-Z][a-z]*)*/
?
aaaah, much better
so much simpler than that faq :-P
that will fail aXskdfjksdjf
WikiWords must start with [A-Z]
[[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=3318 * IanHickson * (+145) Outstanding Issues - Define in terms of the DOM.
oh capitals? then it is fine
thx hixie
np
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3319 * DavidJanes * (+197) Implementations -
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