Ludwig, this is one of the most entertaining e-mails I've read in a while, and I think your arguments make a lot of sense. Given infinite developer resources, do you think there's any logic to providing *both* system Python and python.org based binaries? How much additional work would that be? I think the big problems to solve now is (a) get to the bottom of why the new installer is breaking existing installations of dateutil and pytz. Russell: even though they are not currently working, could you provide what you have so that others can have a look? (b) find a way to include the Python dependencies and perhaps be more clever about Numpy. I think using `pip bundle` comes close -- we then just need to make a fairly generic installer on top of what it produces. Any Mac installer experts out there that want to step up? Mike On 08/01/2013 06:45 PM, Ludwig Schwardt wrote: > Hi Russell (and Mike), >> Is it useful in the long term to have such a packager? My impression is >> that as soon as packaging is more robust we'll switch to using pip or >> easy_install. > First off, sorry for the long email - got a bit carried away :-) The > summary is that I propose we keep the dmg installer but maybe make it > use the system Python for reasons illustrated below. > > For the record, I'm using pip / easy_install to install matplotlib > from source on my Mac and that has been working fine for a while now. > You only need to add pkg-config (and the development tools, obviously) > to a virgin Mac system and this is now really easy in the days of > Homebrew. > > Of course, binary packages have the extra issue of a dependency on the > environment for which it is built, which complicates matters for > binary eggs (thanks for the reminder of wheel, Mike - definitely > something to watch). This is the main reason why I don't use the Mac > installer dmg: it's built for python.org <http://python.org> Python > and I prefer to use system Python instead. > > (On this note, it would be interesting to find out how matplotlib > people get Python on their Mac these days. My gut feel tells me that > Homebrew Python will be quite popular these days, followed by EPD / > Anaconda and then maybe python.org <http://python.org> Python. If you > use Homebrew there is now the option of "brew install matplotlib" > courtesy of Samuel John > <https://github.com/samueljohn/homebrew-python/blob/master/matplotlib.rb>, > while EPD and Anaconda ship with their own versions of matplotlib, so > most of those users are taken care of.) > > To answer your original question: I do see a use for a dmg installer > in the long term, but one you might not have considered. I picture a > Mac user who is not familiar with Python but wants to try out > matplotlib (the image of Justin Long saying "Hello, I'm a Mac" somehow > comes to mind :-)). > > Justin has never heard of easy_install or even a compiler and might > not be that comfortable with the Terminal. On the other hand, he is > used to installing software by downloading and clicking on a dmg or > via the App Store. This is a person who is starting out with these > tools and needs as few obstacles as possible to get going. Once he is > up and running and likes what he sees, he might be persuaded to > install a more full-fledged Python distribution or the rest of the > SciPy stack. > > As an experiment I put myself in the shoes of Justin. I actually did > the steps below on a spare MacBook Pro running Mac OS X 10.7.5 that > was unsullied by extra Pythons and rogue matplotlibs and what not. > > <BEGIN EXPERIMENT> > > Someone told me about "matplotlib" (maybe after seeing a plot in a > talk or a paper) which led me to matplotlib.org > <http://matplotlib.org> (first Google hit). > > I see "Download" and go to the downloads page > <http://matplotlib.org/downloads.html>. I see a bunch of links, > including these two under "Latest stable version": > > matplotlib-1.2.1-py2.7-python.org-macosx10.3.dmg > matplotlib-1.2.1-py2.7-python.org-macosx10.6.dmg > > Since I am on Lion I guess I have to download the latter (although the > fact that it says 10.6 and not 10.7 worries me...). I'm not sure what > the rest of the filename means - what is py27-python.org > <http://py27-python.org>? I download the dmg and open it. I am > impatient like most users and click on "Continue". > > Oops, there is a problem. The third "Continue" button is grayed out > with an error that says: "matplotlib 1.2.1 can't be installed on this > disk. matplotlib requires System Python 2.7 to install." [This is > ironic because, unbeknownst to Justin, he actually *has* System Python > 2.7 installed...] Time to click on "Go Back"... Aah, Important > Information (I kick myself for not reading this): "matplotlib for > MacOS X 10.6 or later [cool!] and 64-bit Python 2.7 from python.org > <http://python.org> (not Apple's built-in Python)". So that's probably > what py2.7-python.org <http://py2.7-python.org> refers to. If Justin > is patient enough he might also spot the following line: "Before > running matplotlib, you must install numpy." > > [Clicking "Go Back" would have been the more useful thing to do in > this case. If I had decided to return to matplotlib.org > <http://matplotlib.org>, I might have seen "Need help?" and clicked on > the "faq" link and ended up at the OS-X Notes > <http://matplotlib.org/1.3.0/faq/installing_faq.html#os-x-notes>. This > mentions "several alternative versions of python" such as EPD, > MacPython (yikes, Leopard only!) or python.org <http://python.org>. > But the installer only works with the latter... Surprisingly enough I > could not find *any* explicit mention in the matplotlib installation > docs that you need to install NumPy first. EDIT: Oh wait, it's well > documented here <http://matplotlib.org/users/installing.html> but I > can only reach this important page by clicking on "docs" in the > toolbar below the page title and spotting the "Installing" link. Maybe > the "Download" section on the front page should read "Read the > installation instructions > <http://matplotlib.org/users/installing.html> first and then visit the > matplotlib downloads page <http://matplotlib.org/downloads.html>."] > > Time to visit python.org <http://python.org>. I see "Download" and > then notice "Python 2.7.5 Mac OS X 64-bit/32-bit x86-64/i386 Installer > (for Mac OS X 10.6 and later [2])". I download the dmg and click on > it. The installation is successful. I go back to the matplotlib dmg > and retry the installation - success! > > Mmm, what now? > > [This is not really matplotlib's problem, but I found surprisingly few > resources that tell you how to start Python on the Mac if you know > absolutely nothing about Unix and Terminals and such. If you search > for "python mac" on Google you at least get some idea at the first hit > <http://www.python.org/getit/mac/>. The official Mac usage page > <http://docs.python.org/2/using/mac.html> is quite technical but > mentions that "your best way to get started with Python on Mac OS X is > through the IDLE integrated development environment" which at least > gets you to a Python prompt.] > > As a typical Mac user I expect that something has appeared in > /Applications. I see no matplotlib but at least there is a Python 2.7 > folder. I click on "Python Launcher" which seems like the obvious > place to start. Nothing happens - oh wait, something has started but > it doesn't do much. I click on IDLE and this looks more promising. At > least there is a prompt that looks like the examples on the net. > Alternatively I have somehow found out how to run Python in the Terminal. > > Next issue... I type "import matplotlib" and up comes "ImportError: No > module named numpy". A search reveals www.numpy.org > <http://www.numpy.org>. I click on "Getting NumPy" and end up at the > SciPy installation page <http://www.scipy.org/install.html>. It > mentions Mac packages but only give an example for using Macports. > Otherwise it suggests installing a full Python distribution (What, > start from scratch? But I'm so close!). > > Argh, this is becoming a PITA. [At this stage Justin might > accidentally install a compiler and enter a new world of hurt :-)] Oh > well, the interwebs to the rescue. Search for "numpy mac". The first > hit is the aforementioned page. The second hit > <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7338051/install-numpy-on-mac-os-x-lion-10-7> > looks more promising, but contains many conflicting answers ("Lion > comes with numpy installed?"). If I'm lucky I might follow the last > suggestion which reveals the NumPy SourceForge > <http://sourceforge.net/projects/numpy/files/NumPy/> page. Or I could > read the Numpy User Guide (DRAFT) -> Building and installing NumPy -> > Mac OS X which points there too. > > I assume I want the latest version (1.7.1) and I stumble upon > numpy-1.7.1-py2.7-python.org-macosx10.6.dmg. Hey, that has a familiar > and comforting filename! It installs without a hitch and finally > "import matplotlib" succeeds and I manage to make a plot from IDLE! > > Now I need a drink... > > <END EXPERIMENT> > > This was quite an eye-opener for me (although I wish I could shut my > eyes again quickly and forget this ever happened :-)). Hopefully the > typical would-be matplotlib user is not as hapless as Justin, but I > suspect that quite a few need guidance. I guess their best chance for > happiness is to stumble upon a full-fledged Python distribution but if > matplotlib is their entry point to the Python universe they might be > in for an adventure ride. Although if I had read the proper matplotlib > installation instructions first I might have gone straight to EPD... > > I picture the following basic Mac user groups: > > - Black belt: pulls git repositories to get bleeding-edge packages, > compiles from scratch, lives in the Terminal, probably uses Homebrew > Python or EPD / Anaconda or some custom Python installation > - Savvy: likes to install packages via pip / easy_install, probably > has a compiler, not afraid of Terminal, probably uses Homebrew Python > or EPD / Anaconda or maybe even Macports / Fink Python > - No Fuss: likes to click on a dmg, has no compiler, rarely uses > Terminal, possibly has EPD / Anaconda or just system Python > - Justin: a hapless version of No Fuss :-) > > The problem I see with the binary dmg installer is that it is > currently aimed somewhere between Savvy and No Fuss users. It won't > help the Black Belt and EPD / Anaconda users and is also not as > straightforward as the No Fuss user would have hoped. > > This is why I'm wondering whether it would make more sense to base the > dmg installer on system Python instead. Since Lion ships with Python > 2.7.1, NumPy 1.5.1, libfreetype and libpng, OS X has had the potential > since 10.7 to run matplotlib out of the box with no modifications or > extra dependencies (although the latest 1.3.0 might throw a spanner in > the works again by shedding dateutil, pytz and friends). A No Fuss > user like Justin could therefore click on the dmg as he does with all > his other software installations and matplotlib will "just work" like > the OS X mantra says. Having used system Python extensively for many > years I can vouch that it is more than adequate for someone wanting to > try out matplotlib and sure is easier to install! > > Of course, maintaining the dmg installer is already a big job and your > work load is therefore probably the biggest factor in these > discussions :-) > > Best regards, > Ludwig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get your SQL database under version control now! > Version control is standard for application code, but databases havent > caught up. So what steps can you take to put your SQL databases under > version control? Why should you start doing it? Read more to find out. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=49501711&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > > _______________________________________________ > Matplotlib-devel mailing list > Mat...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-devel