Wikivoyage/Lounge

See voy:en:Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub#Time to revive WV-shared? for a little bit of context

But those of you on en and ja wikivoyage would've noticed that pagebanners were proposed to be speedily deleted, until Ikan Kekek stopped it from being speedily deleted.

Back when Wikitravel existed, there was WT-shared (I wasn't here during the times of Wikitravel) there was their own repository of images. And with commons becoming increasingly unreliable to host our images with most of them being tagged for deletion due to FoP issues far too quickly, and way too much even at the English Wikivoyage to handle, where there's about 50 active regular users calling it their home wiki or just a really significant contributor. If en.voy can't handle it, I can't imagine more of the smaller language Wikivoyages, like the French Wikivoyage.

So Ikan Kekek suggested to have something like that which is only used on Wikivoyage. Such include e.g. pagebanners, preventing commons from speedily deleting them when they don't have a clue about how an article with a missing pagebanner would look like (see voy:en:User:SHB2000/Junee for that).

I'm all up for support for that, and would other language Wikivoyage's support us here? I understand that tr.voy is quite new, and wasn't there at WT, but for some older Wikivoyage's like it or de support the revival?

Cheers, --SHB2000 (talk | contibs | en.wikivoyage | en.wikipedia) 09:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

This is a consequence of linking banners directly, User:SHB2000, and can be avoided by linking banners through Wikidata. If you declare the banner as in your example, {{pagebanner|Paghtjsue m.jpg}}, then removing the target file breaks the template because it does not have anything to fall back to, as you already pointed out.

A more reliable way to do this is to link the banner through Wikidata, by linking it to a page banner field. In this method, declare a default ("black") banner in the article like this {{pagebanner|Pagebanner default.jpg}}. If a page banner field exists on Wikidata, it will be inserted automatically (with the added advantage that it inserts new banners to any other wikis supporting page banners, too). Should the banner file be removed from Commons, the link is broken and Wikivoyage falls back to its default "black" banner without breaking the article layout. Here is an example of a Wikidata linked page banner for Gunib (a town in Dagestan) on Wikivoyage: d:Q1025918.

I haven't had the chance to test this yet, but Wikidata allows multiple page banner entries. I'm not sure which banner is actually displayed when multiple banner files are linked, but this could be an interesting solution to banners being deleted: if one banner file is no longer available, the other is substituted automatically. ArticCynda (talk) 11:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

That's not the issue here. The main issue is files are just being instantly deleted due to FoP issues, on all language Wikivoyage's particularly en and ja. Our proposal is to create a brand new site unlike commons, is just for Wikivoyage photos that all language Wikivoyage's can access. SHB2000 (talk | contibs | en.wikivoyage | en.wikipedia) 13:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

I understand that's a problem, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but was Commons not explicitly designed to be a repo for media used on other wikis? Rather than starting a Commons2, it would make more sense to fix the issue with Commons because what reason of existence does it still have if it no longer suits its purpose? What I suggested above is a temporary workaround/contingency until problems with Commons are fixed. ArticCynda (talk) 14:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

@SHB2000: I think you're going to step on a lot of people's toes if you attempt to found an alternative media repository. I don't see that happen under the Wikimedia Foundation umbrella any time soon. ArticCynda (talk) 14:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

I do agree here. But have a look at c:COM:ANU with numerous problems with A1Cafel there, to the point where someone us no longer feel contributing at commons. SHB2000 (talk | contibs | en.wikivoyage | en.wikipedia) 14:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

Thanks for linking to that thread, quite annoying situation indeed. I understand it's a problem, but as long as Commons policies are not updated to reflect the needs of sister sites (for example, by allowing "fair use" media under specific conditions), it's only a matter of time before another A1Cafel shows up and starts nominating or deleting media in use on sister sites. I have the impression many Commons contributors still AGF or even support A1Cafel's actions, so clearly there is a divide. And so some of the en-voy folks are trying their usual strategy of "vandalism" accusations to get A1Cafel banned. I doubt that's going to work on Commons, and even if it does, it doesn't solve the underlying problem.

As a regular Commons contributor myself (and someone who has added numerous page banners, too) I'd much rather see Commons policies updated/fixed rather than splintering Commons into a "purist" version and a "fair use" version. It's a collaborative project, we must find a middle ground that works for everyone. ArticCynda (talk) 21:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

True. But except even some from Commons are against A1Cafel here. (also off topic but I took your Chernobyl image off commons for the new Stay safe expedition) SHB2000 (talk | contibs | en.wikivoyage | en.wikipedia) 22:15, 20 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

I have yet to see any Wikivoyager suggest that A1Cafel should be banned, rather than made no longer an autopatroller on Commons and for them to stop abusing speedy deletion nominations or nominating free files from organizations like the National Weather Service for deletion (speedy deletion, yet!). Anyway, the updated proposal seems to be to use a bot to locally upload lots of photos in use at en.voy that we can assume will eventually be nominated for deletion from Commons because of freedom of panorama issues. If we do that, we want to make them available to other Wikivoyages. When we upload a file locally, is it automatically available on Wikidata, or do we have to do something for it to be available there? Or is there a way we can do this all in house, lest we risk someone deleting the files on Wikidata? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

No, if we locally upload a file, it won't be available on Wikidata. SHB2000 (talk | contibs | en.wikivoyage | en.wikipedia) 10:53, 21 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

Correct, you can only link Commons files via Wikidata. I've already tried linking files that are locally uploaded to Wikipedia under their fair use provisions, and Wikidata can't find them. So likewise, files in a local media repository for Wikivoyage can't be linked as illustrations or page banners on Wikidata. Practically this means that a page banner that's local to the English Wikivoyage will not only no longer be automatically linked to other languages, but entirely unavailable to them unless they physically copy the file to their own private repositories. Which effectively splits the source tree and leads to many identical copies of the same image/banner on every Wikivoyage edition.

When I make a new banner for a Wikivoyage article that doesn't have a banner yet, I only need to link it to Wikidata once to "apply" it to any Wikivoyage language edition (unless specific Wikivoyage languages choose to override the Wikidata default banner with a specific file). Personally I find this a very elegant way of doing it, because it means I don't have to edit the Wikivoyage articles of every language individually. It saves time, less prone to errors, etc. ArticCynda (talk) 12:28, 21 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

@SHB2000: I saw the Stay Safe expedition yes, but haven't had the time yet to read into it. May indeed affect Chernobyl and other similar topics. Ping me on my talk page if you need input on Chernobyl, some parts may need to be redacted. Can offer advice if desired. Quite a few of my Commons images on Chernobyl are currently linked to the Chernobyl Wikivoyage article so need to check that removing them from Commons doesn't break that article on en-voy or other languages. ArticCynda (talk) 12:39, 21 July 2021 (UTC) Reply

SHB2000, Ikan Kekek, ArticCynda: Hello, in name of WikiSP, I'd like to put this topic on discussion at the group level and get support. I answered on enwikivoyage at the moment. Regards, --Galahad (sasageyo!)^(esvoy) 17:58, 15 August 2021 (UTC) Reply

Thank you for taking this issue further, Galahad, that is much appreciated! ArticCynda (talk) 11:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Reply

Several Wikivoyagers have been working with conscientious admins at Commons to improve their procedures and guidelines, and the worst offender has been blocked from nominating files for deletion or discussing deletion nominations. Notifications of nominations for deletion have slowed down. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:34, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Reply

That doesn't mean that some kind of Wikivoyage-shared site or setup couldn't be helpful, but the discussion at en.voy stated that we'd have to get approval from Wikimedia and that that approval wouldn't be granted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:36, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Reply

20:49, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

What's up with that disclaimer at the top, "X is a travel topic"?

Any attempt to use that line gets deleted by administrators and there's no sign that that line exists in other existing travel topics, but any attempt to update the documentation to reflect that this is no longer part of the travel topic skeleton also gets reverted on sight - by another administrator. Why?

I recommend starting a discussion at voy:Wikivoyage talk:Quick travel topic article template with a {{ping}} to the admin(s) in question. I doubt that anybody monitors this page on Meta. --Nelson Ricardo 2500 (talk) 21:15, 25 August 2021 (UTC) Reply

@Nelson Ricardo 2500: I monitor this page every so couple of days, but not everyday.

To the Host IP, you do realise that you can't just unilaterally change the format, right? Have you looked at the other formats before? u|Ikan Kekek reverted that edit, because literally, what they said in the edit summary. No, all other travel topic has that inappropriate hat note, and yes, as I repeat you can't unilaterally make changes on formats that have been since the days of Wikitravel. What more, it could have been justified if you had been at least known to the community, or at least sparked up a discussion. But did you do that, and that is no. You need to stop throwing aspersions when you were literally told what you did wasn't the right thing. SHB2000 (talk | contibs) 06:06, 29 August 2021 (UTC) Reply

@SHB2000, We might want to update voy:Wikivoyage:Quick travel topic article template accordingly. Nelson Ricardo 2500 (talk) 19:30, 29 August 2021 (UTC) Reply

Unfortunately, this is a user who is deliberately locking his talk page so that no one may contact him on-wiki. And yes, if the documentation doesn't match actual usage, it does need to be corrected.

Yeah, did you read the header of my talk page? And yes, that user is me. Follow the instructions there and you should end up going to voy:en:User talk:SHB2000/strip/IP talk page. It's protected from harassment and threats by a WMF banned user. Also, please sign your posts with 4 tildes (~~~~) SHB2000 (talk | contibs) 00:27, 1 September 2021 (UTC) Reply

You're trying to send me to an unmonitored user talk subpage. That's a little like setting out a dustbin with "suggestion box" marked on the side. I see that the original error (multiple pieces of documentation are telling users to create topics with " Travel topic is a travel topic. " when neither the text of existing WV topics nor the opinions of whatever admins spoke up support the inclusion of this line) remains. I'm not going from forum to forum to explain and re-explain the issue - you're aware of the matter, either fix it or don't fix it. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.237.50.3 (talk) 23:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC) Reply

So you mean "leave my talk open to anons and get threats?". Yeah, reconsider that because I watch both pages. And yes, I'm aware of the matter, but you are not correct here.

I'm not going to have a go at you here, but change your attitude. You're thinking you know everything but based on your ongoing comments, it seems you don't. And you seem to think you're not at fault here.

And to the original thread, no. The lede is supposed to be changed as soon as you create it. Common sense would prevail that you replace that right after when you insert that. Now perhaps look at the itinerary and event skeletons. They have the same thing as travel topics.

Also, sign your messages. I've told you this before. SHB2000 (talk | contibs) 08:55, 12 September 2021 (UTC) Reply

Um, excuse me? "No, all other travel topic has that inappropriate hat note, and yes, as I repeat you can't unilaterally make changes on formats that have been since the days of Wikitravel." makes no sense. If the existing usage is that the hat note shouldn't be there, whomever was reverting the documentation to stick the hatnote back in was the one making the unilateral change. voy:Wikivoyage:Quick travel topic article template and other pages like it are documentation. If following this documentation puts the user in the cross-hairs of admins because the documentation is wrong, fix the documentation so that it matches whatever current status-quo usage WV admins will actually permit.

Changes with a profound impact should enjoy broad support from their communities, not just a handful of users, and certainly no changes should be made unilaterally. Communication is a key aspect of wiki collaboration, so locking one's own talk page to deliberately complicate communication is a strong indicator that a user doesn't have the constructive mindset required for a wiki. ArticCynda (talk)

Maybe if you weren't so salty about your ban, then maybe you'd have figured out that the page was protected to prevent vandalism against a long-term vandal that's WMF-banned. Furthermore, I clearly had an alternate talk page so please keep your nonsensial reply to yourself. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 09:06, 25 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

Odd that this supposedly WMF-banned vandal only appears to be interested in you, no one else here has problems with that on our respective talk pages. Have you considered that your own behaviour could be attracting these "problems"? It's not the first time other users have pointed out your questionable edit history and, occasionally, less than constructive attitude. If you make it a habit to randomly delete community-contributed articles you don't like with little or no discussion, then it shouldn't be a surprise that you're not making many friends in a community powered project. ArticCynda (talk)

My own behaviour? This WMF-banned vandal has been threatening me (both on wiki and in emails) for more than a year now, and they've not just been threatening me but anyone who reverts their edits. Again, you're still very salty about your contributions under your IP sockpuppets being deleted (well, you shouldn't have in the first place), and completely missed my point. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 08:09, 27 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

02:14, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Article here: [1]. Discussion here: [2]. I think this applies to every language version, not just English. Does anyone know anything more about this? 70.175.192.217 02:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC) Reply

经多次尝试,我发现无法在bing上复现,我需要贴一张图吗? SD hehua (talk) 09:55, 2 November 2021 (UTC) Reply

I just did a Duckduckgo search on "Wikivoyage" and got it as the first three results. 2603:7000:3E40:799B:412A:5005:AEBB:B8B7 20:06, 21 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

Same here, can't reproduce the problem. ArticCynda (talk)

00:48, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Just to inform @ALL that Wikivoyage HBS (bosansko-hrvatsko-crnogorsko-srpski) is proposed https://w.wiki/4h3Z --Zblace (talk) 11:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC) Reply

Incubator instance is aproved and now running...Helping hands and minds are appreciated. --Zblace (talk) 07:13, 11 April 2022 (UTC) Reply

We are currently running extra action for CEE Spring 2022 - you are more than welcome to join us, especially but not only if you understand HBS languages! --Zblace (talk) 07:38, 2 June 2022 (UTC) Reply

21:28, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Wikivoyagers.

Just as an FYI, I found a mirror site of Wikivoyage a few days ago: Traveler and Free. This one is a mirror site of all of our language editions, which updates in real time.

It's not copyleft-compliant: there's no credit given to WV, and each page has a fraudulent copyright symbol on it. The site's terms of service are an interesting read too.

There seems to be real people behind it, rather than bots, as the same site hosts a blog that appears to be original content not found elsewhere on the Web.

On Monday, I sent an email to the address listed on their contact page requesting they comply with copyleft or delete their stolen content. I have also notified Wikimedia Legal.

I will let you know if there are any developments. In the meantime, if you have any suggestions, or wish to contact Legal yourself in order to make this more of a priority for them, please be my guest.

Thanks, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

At first it looks like an ordinary mirror, but I then turned off my ad blocker as experiment, and noticed they are inserting advertisements all over the articles -- including between listings. So it appears they're not only mirroring the content but also trying to earn some cash with it.

I'm rather curious how they implement the real-time mirroring on a technical level without access to any APIs, though. ArticCynda (talk) 21:18, 21 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

Unlike the Travel Wiki that shall not be named, the ads didn't seem to cause any noticeable lag.

This feels like something lawyers should be all over, but who knows how many of these cases they get sent in a week? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:14, 22 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

The ad placement is rather obnoxious though, inserted in the middle between listings etc. Not at all pleasantly styled.

I agree that this would probably be low-hanging fruit for copyright lawyers, though on the other hand, because the content is an exact copy of Wikivoyage, it is unlikely such copyvio sites will ever reach useful google search rankings. It doesn't pose an actual threat to Wikivoyage. ArticCynda (talk)

I don't have an ad-blocker but I couldn't see any ads. To ArticCynda, regarding the content is an exact copy of Wikivoyage, it is unlikely such copyvio sites will ever reach useful google search rankings. It doesn't pose an actual threat to Wikivoyage. A copyvio is a copyvio, whether it's in part or in full. It's a violation of Wikimedia's copyleft license and unless they give proper attribution, it violates the CC-BY SA license, remaining as a copyvio. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 09:10, 25 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

I'm aware it's copyvio; nobody is disputing that User:SHB2000. Rather what I'm saying is that tackling it shouldn't be on our priority list. Before worrying about other copycat sites, I prefer to focus efforts on our own travel guide. It's much more important that we spend limited human resources on improving Wikivoyage, add new articles and content, and prevent vandals from deleting new content -- the latter has grown increasingly problematic in recent months. ArticCynda (talk)

"and prevent vandals from deleting new content -- the latter has grown increasingly problematic in recent months." You're talking about us deleting articles you created under your IP sockpuppets (that are banned from editing), right? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 21:33, 26 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

Let's not get diverted, please. Copyright issues are primarily up to the legal department to sort out, given that T&F haven't responded to my email yet and probably won't at all at this stage. There isn't an awful lot the rest of us can do, apart from supporting legal (paid employees of Wikimedia, so not taking volunteers' time away from WV) where possible and making our interest in seeking a resolution known to them. Unfortunately, I haven't received any update from them apart from the initial acknowledgment of receipt.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:08, 28 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

Anyone knows of good guide to alternative-indy culture in any Wikivoyage language? --Zblace (talk) 20:00, 21 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

It sounds like you're looking for a travel topic. I can't think of one on en.voy, off hand. Maybe you'd like to start one? What do you mean by alternative-indy culture (associated with indy rock?), and which area of the world would you like to cover? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:13, 22 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

@Ikan Kekek my plan is to cover clubs (different styles) and socio-cultural centers that are non (or even anti) commercial in Croatia. I have friend who is interested in doing it for Slovenia also. We would appreciate to see something similar done elsewhere. --Zblace (talk) 06:29, 24 July 2022 (UTC) Reply

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