Stallman lamenting that GCJ and ClassPath are still (read: eternally) catching up ...

Wed Apr 14 12:04:00 GMT 2004

Hi Erik,
Erik Poupaert wrote:
>>And then Sun will release 1.5 and we'll play catchup again.
>>> It doesn't need to be that way.
>> It really depends on who you care about: your users or Sun Microsystems. By the way,
> I haven't heard anybody clamouring for 1.5. And personally, I couldn't care less.

I've seen quite a bit of interest in some projects in using features 
from 1.5, like generics, in general, and with free runtimes in 
particular, after the 1.5 preview was released.
I don't think it has to be that way, but it's part of the game: you 
provide certain core features, then extend to cover most common 
features, then expand to cover all features, and then expand to add 
features specific to your own implementation that eventually make it 
back into the 'standard' [1]. At least that's what the gcc developers 
seem to have done with C, and seem to be doing with C++.
>>I see Richard's post as a way [2] of introducing a new audience how far 
>>GNU Classpath has come
>>> Richard is a man under siege. And sometimes he gives in, while he shouldn't, because
> he was actually right all the way, regardless of all the criticism. GCJ would be so
> much further if it had started by saying that "GCJ is not java", just like he once
> said that "GNU is not Unix".

I think it's been clear from the start, that GCJ is not Java [2]. Java 
is a trademarked term. 'Being Java' can only be claimed after licensing 
and passing a test suite from Sun.
So Kaffe states very prominently on kaffe.org that it's not Java. And 
speaking of GCJ, "GCJ is a portable, optimizing, ahead-of-time compiler 
for the Java Programming Language." To me, that reads like "GCJ is not 
java, folks, it's a compiler, and it turns your programs into fancy 
native code".
Anyway, I doubt that gcj, i.e. the compiler, is being really held back 
by the efforts to catch up to the remaining JDK 1.4 library APIs.
>>If more people from the Java open source world ...
>>> The situation is actually even more pressing than that.
>> Without the Apache Software Foundation, Tomcat, JBoss and related software
> stack bailing them out, Sun Microsystems would already have been forced to throw in
> the towel. The Java open source world has bailed out Sun way more than Microsoft
> recently has. Now it's indeed more than time to convince them to stop doing that.

I've got no problem with Sun being bailed out. I don't think Sun's 
financial situation has much impact on free java runtime projects. I 
doubt gcc or g++ development were ever affected much by AT&T market 
capitalization :)
It is a useful example, though, to remind people that their favorite 
non-free java runtime vendor's share-holders' best interest may change 
away from providing free-as-in-no-charge runtime environments for java.
But I doubt it plays any role in GNU Classpath developement. If Sun goes 
bankrupt, for example, I doubt that people using non-free runtimes will 
immediately deinstall their exisiting JREs to use gcj instead, and live 
with some missing functionality in exchange for the basic GPL-ish 
freedoms. They would have had the same chance to switch the day before 
Sun hypothetically went bankrupt, and didn't. OTOH, they could switch 
when the free runtimes have surpassed the non-free ones in terms of 
whatever matters to them, and surpassed them enough to equalize the 
switch-over cost. If Sun were bankrupt, such change might come a little 
quicker, but I don't doubt it will come anyway. And Sun does some good 
work on some nice free software.
>>And the next catch-up session after 1.5 is released might go faster if 
>>there are more GNU Classpath developers around from the start :)
>>> Without niches with frantic activity using GCJ, these developers won't come, because
> in the end, it's all still about scratching itches.

Judging by the traffic on GNU Classpath, gcj, Kaffe and other mailing 
lists, I'd say that those niches exist, and that they have grown quite a 
bit since last year. Or people have got more scratchy or itchy in the 
last 12 months :)
> But then regardless, you shouldn't expect such developers to come in droves from the
> Java world. Java developers have long time already accepted that the JDK/JRE are not
> free. They simply don't understand what Richard just said. They don't sense the
> implications of the GPL. Do we really need yet another influx of that kind of
> developers/users; at this point? Their numbers could easily swamp us. Growing too
> quickly can also destroy the very culture on which this whole endeavour is based. I'm
> sure that the orthodoxy needed to keep linux free, based on convinced Stallmanian
> determination, is more important at this point, than getting in whoever at whatever
> cost.

Let me paraphrase: Do we need the unbaptized masses?
I doubt they'll ask me for permit to enter once they start using Kaffe, 
anyway :)
Richard is a cool guy, and a visionary, and all that. Sometimes people 
misunderstand him, but that's part of the deal when you're cool, and a 
visionary. He didn't let himself be swamped by the linux masses, but 
went ahead and tried to teach them his Tao.
So don't fear the masses, be cool and visionary, see them as desiring to 
be taught about freedom. A couple of times, till they get it, if 
necessary :)
> So, why not focus on the niches where GCJ could become successful, if not,
> dominant ...

I'd say that it already is the dominant "portable, optimizing, 
ahead-of-time compiler" for Java on every platform it's been ported to :)
cheers,
dalibor topic
[1] Yes, I know there is no Java standard, it's just a figure of speech :)
[2] Whatever is Java anyway: the language, the bytecode format, the 
APIs, the linux distribution brand ... :)