JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.

Virtue & vice - and rascals...

ThomasK

Senior Member
Belgium, Dutch
I would like to go into aspects of virtue and vice, via their equivalents and derivations in your language. I am interested in how the those two words are being used now, if ever...

Dutch refers to "deugden en ondeugden [un-/virtue]" literally. As for derivations, etc.:

  • But the root of "deugd" has also led to "deugen" as a verb, meaning: to be good, of good quality, to work/function properly, both people and things: some machines don’t deugen (have no quality, literally "have no virtue, do not virtue") and sometimes we say that people (do not) deugen. Fairly recent book was entitled: De meeste mensen deugen (Most people are well-intentioned, are good by nature....)
  • Next came "deugniet/en", "rascal/s", in Dutch a mostly very affectionate word for someone, who commits mischief and does not stop, generally children - and so we do not really mind. (I had thought of brats but those appear to be really annoying, a nuisance. Not like our deugnieten however! Taugenichts in German. Good-for-nothing?
  • In Belglum we say that some experience "heeft me deugd gedaan", has done me good, but literally: it had done (generated?) virtue. Of course there is no ethical aspect in the latter, but the effect of those experiences is often almost existential. Maybe more like energy or power, the original meaning according to etymonline.com.
As a matter of fact, we now talk about our "deugden en ondeugden" in a mostly ironical way. One typical ironical ondeugd is eating too much candy, indulging in the good things of life, etc., but it is supposed to be a "weakness" in English (zwakte in Dutch) . I am afraid we prefer to focus on strengths and weaknesses nowadays, as in SWOT-analysis: extremely pragmatic, I think. But somehow the two those are or used to be the basis of judgments, as in the old times, when your vice and vritues were counted, and there were "book mirrors" for that to help you to check your virtues and uncover your vices.
Here are some French words derived from vice and vertu:
  • vicié ("corrupted") : literally "corrupted by vice", typically used in the expression "air vicié" (used/polluted air).
  • vicissitude : from Latin of the same meaning "change, instability", usually pejorative.
  • virtuose, virtuosité : from Italian virtuoso = "virtuous". Very gifted, talented, often used about musicians.
Perfect! Your note reminded me of
- vicieuze cirkel, vicous circle (Teufelskreis in German, circle of the devil)
- virtuoos indeed, we use the word too

But no other vice-derivations, as far as I can see. Just ondeugdelijk (for things that never work properly for example) and ondeugdzaam (for person lacking virtue(s)), but I consider them uncommon. May be due to the complexity of the compound (neg. of a compound in fact: deugdzaam, deugdelijk).We simply say: het werkt niet (goed).
Last edited:
Russian:
virtue = добродетель [dəbrɐˈdjetjɪlj] ("good/kind" + "do" + suffix). When something that can be listed, it's the same as virtue; when taken as a general personal characteristic, though, it has some shift to - citing Merriam-Webster - "moral excelence" and maybe "chastity" - in short, certain purity. The term is somewhat high-styled; in the modern discourse, I guess more common are terms like порядочность [pɐˈrjadət͡ɕnəsjtj] - decency; it's close to virtue as "conformity to the standard of right", or, something more specific is used, or you can meet formalist phrases of socialist legacy like высокие моральные качества "high moral qualities".

vice = порок [pɐˈrok] (considered to be related to порицание - "blaming" but it's not proven) - only moral sense, no law-related usage. Mainly debachery, alcoholism, but contextually can be greed and the like - in short, sins in the secular domain. It also means "defect" in certain collocations - wood, heart and something else.
Last edited:
Russian:
virtue (excellence in morals): добродетель (dobrodétel'), from Church Slavonic, literally "good-doer" (transparently)
vice: порок (porók), from Church Slavonic, etymologically connected to порицать (poritsát') "to reproach", literally ~~"bespeak".
Both are used chiefly in artistic language or in religious context.

virtue (good model quality): достоинство (dostóinstvo) (also a positive quality in general, and "dignity"), literally "worthiness", most literally "to-stand-ness" (basically proto-Slavic). Its usage is not so restricted, obviously.
(cross-posted)
Last edited:
Yup, достоинство, really I forgot it. Probably because I lack it personally, or maybe I avoid it as it associates to me with some kind of super-pride :). What's interesting is that as a general characteristic, it is "dignity", but as a listed item it's more like just "merit, plus" (or "advantage" when of things).

Not like our deugnieten however! Taugenichts in German. Good-for-nothing?
Russian негодяй [njɪɡɐˈdjæɪ̯] ("scoundrel") is also constructed as "not-useful" (apparently implying "for anything") - but today it's not "useless" but simply, well, a bad person (with a mild derogatory effect - actually it even sounds a bit funny)...
Last edited:
Greek:

Virtue:
-If meant as a generic concept, then it's «αρετή» [aɾeˈt̠i] (f.) < Ancient Greek feminine noun «ἀρετή» /ɐreˈtɛː/.
The person with «αρετή» is «ενάρετος, -τη, -το» [e̞ˈna.ɾe̞t̠o̞s̠] (m.), [e̞ˈna.ɾe̞t̠i] (f.), [e̞ˈna.ɾe̞t̠o̞] (n.) < Ancient Greek adj. «ἐνάρετος, -τος, -τον» /eˈnɐ.retos/ (m. or f.), /eˈnɐ.reton/ (n.) --> virtuous, valiant*. A compound: prefix and preposition «ἐν» /en/ + «ἀρετή».
-If meant as sexual continence, then it's «αγνότητα» [aˈɣno̞.t̠i.t̠a] (f.) < Ancient Greek 3rd declension feminine noun «ἁγνότης» /hɐˈgno.tɛːs/ --> purity, holiness, in NT also chastity, from the adj. «ἁγνός» /hɐˈgnos/ (from its feminine form the modern first name for females derives, Αγνή, Agnes, Inès, Inés, Ines, Инес etc).
The chaste person is «αγνός, -νή, -νό» [aˈɣno̞s̠] (m.), [aˈɣni] (f.), [aˈɣno̞] (n.).

Vice: «Ανηθικότητα» [aniθiˈko̞.t̠it̠a] (f.) < Koine Greek (mostly under Christian influence) 3rd declension feminine noun «ἀνηθικότης» /ɐnɛːthiˈko.tɛːs/ --> lit. immorality but also unchastity. A compound: alpha privative + Koine feminine noun «ἠθική» /ɛːthiˈkɛː/ --> morality, the substantivised feminine form of the masculine adj. «ἠθικός» /ɛːthiˈkos/ --> pertaining to morals, moral < Ancient Greek neuter noun «ἦθος» /ɛ́.ɛ̀thos/.
The unvirtuous/immoral/corrupt person is «διεφθαρμένος, -νη, -νο» [ði.e̞fθaɾˈme̞.no̞s̠] (m.), [ði.e̞fθaɾˈme̞.ni] (f.), [ði.e̞fθaɾˈme̞.no̞] (n.) < Ancient Greek perfect mediopassive participle «διεφθαρμένος, -νη, -νον» /di.ephthɐrˈme.nos/ (m.), /di.ephthɐrˈme.nɛː/ (f.), /di.ephthɐrˈme.non/ (n.) --> corrupt, of verb «διαφθείρω» /di.aˈphtheː.rɔː/.

Rascal isn't as strong, it's «κατεργάρης, -ρα» [kat̠e̞ɾˈɣa.ɾis̠] (m.), [kat̠e̞ɾˈɣa.ɾa] (f.) < Byzantine Greek masculine noun «κατεργάρης» /kɐterˈɣɐ.ris/ (nom. sing), «κατεργάροι» /kɐterˈɣɐ.rø/ (nom. pl.) --> convicted for petty offences to perform rowing in a «κάτεργον» /ˈkɐ.terɣon/ (n.) --> penal ship (obliged to transport people or (more common) goods), a compound: prefix and preposition «κατά» /kɐˈtɐ/ + neuter noun «ἔργον». In MoGr «κάτεργα» [ˈka.te̞ɾɣa] (which is the Byzantine noun in plural) is poetic for prison.

* In archaic Greek, «ἀρετή» was also valour.
Greek:

Virtue:
-If meant as a generic concept, then it's «αρετή» [aɾeˈt̠i] (f.) < Ancient Greek feminine noun «ἀρετή» /ɐreˈtɛː/.
(...-)
-If meant as sexual continence, then it's «αγνότητα» [aˈɣno̞.t̠i.t̠a] (f.) < Ancient Greek 3rd declension feminine noun «ἁγνότης» /hɐˈgno.tɛːs/ --> purity, holiness, in NT also chastity, from the adj. «ἁγνός» /hɐˈgnos/ (from its feminine form the modern first name for females derives, Αγνή, Agnes, Inès, Inés, Ines, Инес etc). The chaste person is «αγνός, -νή, -νό» [aˈɣno̞s̠] (m.), [aˈɣni] (f.), [aˈɣno̞] (n.).
Could you say that chastity was simply very high in the moral virtues list? Does it have to do with knowing - /gno:thi/? I guess the /o/ is short here, not the o-mega...
Vice: «Ανηθικότητα» [aniθiˈko̞.t̠it̠a] (f.) < Koine Greek (mostly under Christian influence) 3rd declension feminine noun «ἀνηθικότης» /ɐnɛːthiˈko.tɛːs/ --> lit. immorality but also unchastity. A compound: alpha privative + Koine feminine noun «ἠθική» /ɛːthiˈkɛː/ --> morality, the substantivised feminine form of the masculine adj. «ἠθικός» /ɛːthiˈkos/ --> pertaining to morals, moral < Ancient Greek neuter noun «ἦθος» /ɛ́.ɛ̀thos/.
This is the origin of the present-day "ethics", I guess, and so something like "unethical" literally. Again the link with (un)chastity. A semantic shift consisting in narrowing down the meaning to only chastity in certain contexts as a key virtue?
The unvirtuous/immoral/corrupt person is «διεφθαρμένος, -νη, -νο» [ði.e̞fθaɾˈme̞.no̞s̠] (m.), [ði.e̞fθaɾˈme̞.ni] (f.), [ði.e̞fθaɾˈme̞.no̞] (n.) < Ancient Greek perfect mediopassive participle «διεφθαρμένος, -νη, -νον» /di.ephthɐrˈme.nos/ (m.), /di.ephthɐrˈme.nɛː/ (f.), /di.ephthɐrˈme.non/ (n.) --> corrupt, of verb «διαφθείρω» /di.aˈphtheː.rɔː/.
So for these three virtue related words, there are three different stems?
Rascal isn't as strong, it's «κατεργάρης, -ρα» [kat̠e̞ɾˈɣa.ɾis̠] (m.), [kat̠e̞ɾˈɣa.ɾa] (f.) < Byzantine Greek masculine noun «κατεργάρης» /kɐterˈɣɐ.ris/ (nom. sing), «κατεργάροι» /kɐterˈɣɐ.rø/ (nom. pl.) --> convicted for petty offences to perform rowing in a «κάτεργον» /ˈkɐ.terɣon/ (n.) --> penal ship (obliged to transport people or (more common) goods), a compound: prefix and preposition «κατά» /kɐˈtɐ/ + neuter noun «ἔργον». In MoGr «κάτεργα» [ˈka.te̞ɾɣa] (which is the Byzantine noun in plural) is poetic for prison.
What a story "behind" Greek rascals... Ours are not necessarily punished, but yours are...
* In archaic Greek, «ἀρετή» was also valour.
So perhaps I could say that in an early stage valour was the key virtue, whereas - under Christian influenc? - chastity came to replace it, at least in certain contexts?
I have just checked equivalents in three Scandinavian languages and found out that - according to Google T - there are three different concepts or words:
dy(g)d, like in Dutch/German,
then last, vice, like a burden perhaps (last/Last in Dutch/German),
and various equivalents of deugniet/ Taugenicht,
- like skurk in Norse and Swedish (schurk in Dutch, something like a villain, or not that bad really), or
- slyngel in Danish (slungel, a tall, lean, clumsy person in Dutch, no link with any crime or mischief). It needs to be examined whether those words in Scandinavian have a different, more or less pejorative meaning...

I just thought:
@AutumnOwl, could you perhaps add some comment from your point of view? Feel free, you know!
Last edited:
Could you say that chastity was simply very high in the moral virtues list? Does it have to do with knowing - /gno:thi/? I guess the /o/ is short here, not the o-mega...
They have no connection I'm afraid, «ἁγνός» is related to «ἅγιος» /há.gi.os/ though = holy, sanctus, and via the Latin ieiūnus it's cognate with Italian digiuno, French jeûne.
This is the origin of the present-day "ethics", I guess, and so something like "unethical" literally. Again the link with (un)chastity. A semantic shift consisting in narrowing down the meaning to only chastity in certain contexts as a key virtue?
Interesting way to see it, I'd say yes. Perhaps a more generic adjective would be «ανήθικος, -κή, -κο» [aˈni.θiko̞s̠] (m.), [aˈni.θici] (f.), [aˈni.θiko̞] (n.) which the umbrella term for immoral (alpha privative + «ηθική»).
So perhaps I could say that in an early stage valour was the key virtue, whereas - under Christian influenc? - chastity came to replace it, at least in certain contexts?
Εxactly
Catalan

virtut (vertut in Old Catalan) 'virtue' < Latin VIRTUTEm
virtuós m virtuosa f (vertuós in Old Catalan) 'virtuous' < Late Latin VIRTUŌSU
viril 'virile' < Latin VIRILEm

I'm adding the last word because both derive in Latin from VIR 'man'. In origin, both VIR·IL·IS and VIR·TUS referred to 'manly' and 'manliness', and, as an associated quality, 'brave' and 'courage, strength'. Only later VIRTUS would acquire moral/religious values.​

vici 'vice' < Latin VITIUm
viciós m viciosa f 'vicious, dissolute' < Latin VITIŌSU
viciar 'to corrupt' | viciar-se 'become a vice'
aviciar 'to spoil' | aviciar-se 'get hooked'
aviciat m aviciada f 'addicted, hooked; spoiled'

These are the adjectival meanings derived. I can't think of any for 'rascal' related to these roots. 'Rascal' in Catalan is trapella, murri, brivall, entremaliat, etc, words from origins unrelated to vice.

An interesting word for vicious excess:

disbauxa [diz'bawʃə] 'debauchery'
< Occitan desbaucha < French débauche < v. débaucher​
[From the Germanic word balk 'beam' (which would also lead via Italian to the pan-European balkon), came the Old French bauc/bauch, from which the verb for trimming wood away to create beams, des-bauch-er (modern débaucher), that is, to 'cut open', to 'separate', and figuratedly, to 'move away (from your job or duty)', and eventually to 'conduct with excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures'.]​
​
The derived adjective is disbauxat m disbauxada f, a person who lives in constant debauchery.
From the Germanic word balk 'beam' (which would also lead via Italian to the pan-European balkon), came the Old French bauc/bauch, from which the verb for trimming wood away to create beams, des-bauch-er (modern débaucher), that is, to 'cut open', to 'separate',
This is rather the meaning of ébaucher (modern meaning "to draft / to sketch out").

and figuratedly, to 'move away (from your job or duty)'
This is the modern meaning of débaucher. And reciprocally, embaucher means "to start working" or "to hire (someone) for a job".

But indeed, all these words have the same etymology.
Debauchery is «ακολασία» [ako̞laˈs̠i.a] (f.) in Greek, an ancient word «ἀκολασίᾱ» /ɐkolɐˈsi.ɐː/ (f.) --> lit. lack of chastice, metaphorically licentiousness, intemperance, a compound: alpha privative + masculine noun «κόλος» /ˈko.los/.
It forms the denominative (and learned) verb «ακολασταίνω» [ako̞laˈs̠t̠e̞.no̞] --> to indulge in debauchery < Ancient Greek verb «ἀκολασταίνω» /ɐkolaˈstɐi̯.nɔː/ --> to be licentious.
The adjective is «ακόλαστος, -στη, -στο» [aˈko̞.las̠t̠o̞s̠] (m.), [aˈko̞.las̠t̠i] (f.), [aˈko̞.las̠t̠o̞] (n.) --> lecherous.
However...the word translated as "debauchery" found in one of Paul's epistles (Ephesians 5:18), is «ἀσωτίᾱ» /ɐsɔːˈti.ɐː/ (f.) --> shameless and immoral behaviour, prodigality, hence the parable of the prodigal son = «ὁ ἄσωτος υἱός /ho ˈɐ.sɔːtos hyi̯ˈos/. The word is a compound: alpha privative + verb «σῴζω» /ˈsɔ.ɔi̯s͡dɔː/. In MoGr with «ασωτία» [as̠o̞ˈt̠i.a] (f.) we describe immoral & licentious behaviour.
Last edited:
In Russian, debauchery is разврат ("dis-, apart" + "turn"), apparently a development from the (causative) совратить ("off" + "turn") - to seduce/pervert/corrupt, lit. "make turn away" - i.e. divert, lead astray from the rightious path. The replacement of prefix gives a sense of some kind of disintegration as in other words of the kind - e.g. распущенный "licentious" is literally "disbanded, dismissed" - such that has been let out (better said, apart). Curiously, the debauchery word besides that appears to be of the same morphology as разворот - "U-turn"...
Last edited:
We too have viciado, vicisitud, virtuoso, virtuosidad, círculo vicioso et cetera in Spanish but I'd like to point out that virtual is etymologically related with virtus in Spanish and in any other language that makes use of virtual. Talking about usage, we have a saying: contra el vicio de pedir, la virtud de no dar.
How are vice and virtue used in English?
Here's a mildly interesting tidbit: one can say "One of the virtues of living in the woods is that one can go for a restorative walk or hike at any time." but one would not say "One of the vices of living in the woods is that one's body is a dinner table for mosquitoes."
In Russian, debauchery is разврат ("dis-, apart" + "turn"), apparently a development from the (causative) совратить ("off" + "turn") - to seduce/pervert/corrupt, lit. "make turn away" - i.e. divert, lead astray from the rightious path. The replacement of prefix gives a sense of some kind of disintegration as in other words of the kind - e.g. распущенный "licentious" is literally "disbanded, dismissed" - such that has been let out (better said, apart). Curiously, the debauchery word besides that appears to be of the same morphology as разворот - "U-turn"...
Just to note, the meaing of French débauche (debauchery) in Russian has somewhat surprisingly shifted to ~"loud drunken disturbance" (дебош). Some secondary dictionaries do cite the original meaning, but by now it's definitely outdated. The shape of the related agent noun дебошир (deboshír [djɪbɐˈʂɨr]) seems to be influenced by German.
Last edited:
virtut (vertut in Old Catalan) 'virtue' < Latin VIRTUTEm
virtuós m virtuosa f (vertuós in Old Catalan) 'virtuous' < Late Latin VIRTUŌSU
viril 'virile' < Latin VIRILEm

I'm adding the last word because both derive in Latin from VIR 'man'. In origin, both VIR·IL·IS and VIR·TUS referred to 'manly' and 'manliness', and, as an associated quality, 'brave' and 'courage, strength'. Only later VIRTUS would acquire moral/religious values.​
You are really producing an impressive list below. Quite interesting!
vici 'vice' < Latin VITIUm
  • viciós m viciosa f 'vicious, dissolute' < Latin VITIŌSU
  • viciar 'to corrupt' | viciar-se 'become a vice'
  • aviciar 'to spoil' | aviciar-se 'get hooked' (this a = LAT ad, towards?)
  • aviciat m aviciada f 'addicted, hooked; spoiled'
As far as I can see/ remember, this is quite different from other languages: I have not encountered verbal derivation of vice.
These are the adjectival meanings derived. I can't think of any for 'rascal' related to these roots. 'Rascal' in Catalan is trapella, murri, brivall, entremaliat, etc, words from origins unrelated to vice.
Google T suggested something for those 4 words: rascal (maybe bully?), clever, rogue, mischievous. Do they somehow make sense as near-synonyms?

Our word (deug-niet) is simply non-virtuous (person), which is not so evident. Even vice (on-deugd) is simply a negative word: on-virtue. But there is a negative keyword for rascal, deugniet too, come to think of it: bengel.
- I first thought a naughty engel (angel) turned into a bengel, but wrong guess!
- I now find out that the origin has to do with something that makes noise, creates a noisy, disturbing, possibly agressive atmosphere, an object that causes banging; it later came to refer to the person banging...
An interesting word for vicious excess:

disbauxa [diz'bawʃə] 'debauchery'
< Occitan desbaucha < French débauche < v. débaucher​
Well-known indeed, as excess, moral excess, or... immorality, that is, quite a strong/... vice
[From the Germanic word balk 'beam' (which would also lead via Italian to the pan-European balkon), came the Old French bauc/bauch, from which the verb for trimming wood away to create beams, des-bauch-er (modern débaucher), that is, to 'cut open', to 'separate', and figuratedly, to 'move away (from your job or duty)', and eventually to 'conduct with excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures'.]​
Very interesting etymology!
I have not encountered verbal derivation of vice.
Like in Catalan, we have viciar in Spanish and the proninal form of it viciarse. But we also have enviciar and the pronominal form of it enviciarse. Aviciar(se) was used in Old Spanish as a synonym of enviciar(se). Nowadays it's just used with agricultural meanings unknown for many/most people.
OK, now I see. Thanks. Could you use "virtues" in this sentence here? --- There might be a different starting-point. We can only use deugd/ virtue when referring to a person's characteristics (which is the meaning in Latin as far as I know). We could therefore not say that "een van de deugden [one of the virtues] van in de bossen te leven is ...".

But I am not suggesting there is something wrong with your use of the word! Nono, such semantic shifts happen all the time and their use is correct, either rightaway or after some time. The only slight problem is that we'd have to create space for this extra meaning. In Dutch it would "een van de voordelen [advantages, benefits]" for example.
You wrote "Could you use "virtues" in this sentence here?" but I don't know what sentence you are referring to with "this sentence here."

It never crossed my mind that you might be suggesting there is something wrong with the English use of the word -- Dutch and English are different languages, after all.

As for semantic shifts and correctness, when they occur in my own language and in my own lifetime it can be a little off-putting for a while, but I manage to cope. :)
You wrote "Could you use "virtues" in this sentence here?" but I don't know what sentence you are referring to with "this sentence here."
I thought of this one: "One of the benefits of living in the woods is that one can go for a restorative walk or hike at any time."
It never crossed my mind that you might be suggesting there is something wrong with the English use of the word -- Dutch and English are different languages, after all.

As for semantic shifts and correctness, when they occur in my own language and in my own lifetime it can be a little off-putting for a while, but I manage to cope. :)
Of course they are different, but I tend to look for parallels from a wishful thinker's perspective, and have caught myself right-handed, once in a while, while wishing too much and assuming that certain (semantic/ etymological) links triggered more than they do. You see?

So pleased you have been coping with...! ;-)
Top Bottom

AltStyle によって変換されたページ (->オリジナル) /