the reason that

Hi,

In the following made-up dialogue,
- Why were you late for school?
- Because I overslept this morning.
- The reason that you overslept this morning doesn't really convince me.

I was wondering is 'the reason that you overslept this morning' an appositional clause rather than a relative clause?
Thanks.

Insofar as "the reason (that) you overslept this morning" is actually:

The reason (for which) you overslept this morning.... or
The reason (why) you overslept this morning....

...then it's a relative clause introduced by an implied preposition. Most people in AE would just say "The reason you overslept this morning..." skipping "that" or "why".

That said, "The reason that you overslept this morning doesn't really convince me" is meaningless, and I doubt any native speaker would say it. When we hear "The reason you overslept this morning" we're expecting to hear the explanation, the reason, why this student overslept. I.e:

"The reason you overslept this morning was that your mom forgot to wake you up."

If the teacher is telling the student that he/she doesn't believe the kid's excuse, they would say "Your excuse doesn't convince me" or "I don't believe you overslept."

LetsZoom said:

If the teacher is telling the student that he/she doesn't believe the kid's excuse, they would say "Your excuse doesn't convince me" or "I don't believe you overslept."

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This just made me wonder whether it's possible to say 'Your excuse that you overslept this morning doesn't convince me.'
If not, I would be really curious as an English learner about how such ideas as 'that you overslept this morning' could be conveyed in an appositional clause.
But if it is possible, then what's the difference between 'reason' and 'excuse' that makes it acceptable for 'excuse' to be followed by an appositional clause?
:)

"I don't believe your excuse--the excuse you've given me, saying that you overslept this morning." This IS an appositional clause. It just restates what the excuse was.

And in general, "Your excuse that you overslept this morning doesn't convince me" --well, that's still an odd way of speaking. It's wordy and repetitive and unnatural. Why not just say "Your excuse doesn't convince me." No need for apposition. The kid just told the teacher that he overslept. And "this morning" is a given; how the kid slept last week would hardly be relevant.

And if you insist on using the verb "convince", the teacher would more likely say "Your excuse isn't very convincing."

Ryovzx09 said:

The reason that you overslept this morning doesn't really convince me.

Click to expand...

I agree with LetsZoom that the above is not idiomatic. I would say one of the following.

Your reason, that you overslept this morning, doesn't really convince me. (with pauses at the commas)
Your reason for being late doesn't really convince me.

As Zoom says, we would probably use "excuse" instead of "reason" here. The former often includes a negative nuance of trying to avoid the consequences of your actions, which is a good fit here.

If you're not convinced, there's something that you don't believe.
What is it that you need to be convinced of? You don't believe that he overslept or you don't believe that oversleeping is a good enough reason for being late, or ...?

The problem is for me that you have given us nothing that would require the word convince. You convince somebody of something. What is the thing you're trying to be convinced of. It's nowhere in that dialogue. We need that or we need to drop the word convince.

- The reason that you overslept this morning...

As others have said, in a sentence that begins this way we would expect a reason why the oversleeping happened...

- The reason that you overslept this morning is because you stayed up late watching TV.

It might be a sentence said by the boy's mother, not his teacher, who was not there to see that happen.

What you aren't making clear in your sentence is that you're referring to the reason the student gave you earlier.

- The reason that you gave me for being late, that you overslept, doesn't really convince me that I should excuse you being late.

As other have said, if you think he's not telling the truth that's a different kind of wording.

- I don't think the reason that you gave me for being late, that you overslept, is true.

Or even just that it's not a very good reason.

- I don't think the reason that you gave me for being late, that you overslept, is a very good reason for being late.

kentix said:

The problem is for me that you have given us nothing that would require the word convince. You convince somebody of something. What is the thing you're trying to be convinced of. It's nowhere in that dialogue. We need that or we need to drop the word convince.

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I appreciate your explanation.
The reason I made up the dialogue in the opening post is that I was trying to figure out how an appositional clause could be used in a situation like that because I was trying to figure out whether it's possible to put an appositional clause after 'reason'.
I didn't expect that the use of the word 'convince' would cause any confusion, which it did. 😅

Ryovzx09 said:

I appreciate your explanation.
The reason I made up the dialogue in the opening post is that I was trying to figure out how an appositional clause could be used in a situation like that because I was trying to figure out whether it's possible to put an appositional clause after 'reason'.
I didn't expect that the use of the word 'convince' would cause any confusion, which it did. 😅

Click to expand...

If you want it to be appositional, you should punctuate it as such. Part of the problem is that both reason and overslept are both actually in question. And of course an apposition is non-defining in nature:

- The so-called "reason", that you "overslept" this morning, doesn't really convince me.

Ryovzx09 said:

Hi,

In the following made-up dialogue,
- Why were you late for school?
- Because I overslept this morning.
- The reason that you overslept this morning doesn't really convince me.

I was wondering is 'the reason that you overslept this morning' an appositional clause rather than a relative clause?
Thanks.

Click to expand...

"The reason that you overslept...doesn't convince me" is not idiomatic English. Parsing your sentence is a questionable effort to begin with because of that issue.

You're not using "convinced" in the sense of being persuaded by logical argument. You're using it to mean "sure you're telling the truth". But with that meaning we normally make the speaker the subject, or some other person(s), since "convinced" is a state of mind:

I am not convinced (that) you overslept this morning.

They were not convinced he had overslept.

And there "convinced" is an adjective complemented by a content clause.

I don't think it works with the definite article very well, but with a demonstrative it is better:

That reason, that termites would eat the wood, convinced him to use treated lumber when building the deck.

There, the noun phrase "that reason" and the content clause are referring to the same thing, and they have the same function in clause structure, the two necessary conditions for apposition in many grammatical analyses.


With the definite article the content clause is, IMO, a complement of "The reason", not an appositive. But "reason" seems the wrong choice. "Fact" or "explanation" are better, I think. "That fact, that termites..."