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Bulgarian: Differences between clitics "се" and "си"

Marco Smith

New Member
Chinese
Greetings!

Just start my journey of learning Bulgarian. Let me take it directly: in the sentence:

Говорим си.

I’ve learned some Russian before so it can translated into Russian like:

Говоримся.

Which is from the infinitive говориться. Reflective verbs in Russian usually take the suffix "-ся", which almost stays the same (leave aside the -сь when the vowel precedes in the conjugation) also they can sometimes use for expressing reciprocal meanings. But as I know the reflexive verbs usually take particle "се", so why "си" is used here? Or maybe in Bulgarian reflexive verbs don’t express reciprocal meanings? And if possible, what are their differences between them in usage?

My most sincere thanks for you.
But as I know the reflexive verbs usually take particle "се", so why "си" is used here?
The East Slavic reflexive verbs come from a lot of simplification. Bulgarian seems to be on a more archaic stage in this regard, with се (from *sę, whence Old East Slavic ся) being accusative and си (from *si) being dative (and, of course, they're still independent detachable clitics). In Russian these forms have merged long ago, though the universal result was -ся in most dialects and -си in some other.

To note, Russian reflexive verbs may convey (depending on the verb and the context) reflexive proper, passive, reciprocal, plain medial actions and actions performed in one's interest; at least the last group (e.g. убираться 'to clean up') etymologically used to employ the dative clitic for the most part.

And, speaking of говориться, in Russian it can actually only have the passive meaning (~'to be spoken' - chiefly in impersonal, subjectless constructions with a prepositional phrase as an argument, e.g. здесь говорилось о многом 'a lot was discussed here', lit. ~'here it-was-spoken about many-things'), which is certainly not the case with Bulgarian говоря си.
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The East Slavic reflexive verbs come from a lot of simplification. Bulgarian seems to be on a more archaic stage in this regard, with се (from *sę, whence Old East Slavic ся) being accusative and си (from *si) being dative (and, of course, they're still independent detachable clitics). In Russian these forms have merged long ago, though the universal result was -ся in most dialects and -си in some other.
Many thanks for your comprehensive response!
To note, Russian reflexive verbs may convey (depending on the verb and the context) reflexive proper, passive, reciprocal, plain medial actions and actions performed in one's interest
Yes, this is one of the most difficult parts when it comes to learning Russian as a non-Slavic, many times when I tried to express passive meanings I always didn’t know whether to use "-ся" verbs or passive participles
which is certainly not the case with Bulgarian говоря си.
Maybe use "говорить друг другу" is better?
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And, speaking of говориться, in Russian it can actually only have the passive meaning (~'to be spoken' - chiefly in impersonal, subjectless constructions with a prepositional phrase as an argument, e.g. здесь говорилось о многом 'a lot was discussed here', lit. ~'here it-was-spoken about many-things'), which is certainly not the case with Bulgarian говоря си.
That would be translated as тук се говори.
Говорим си means we're talking to each other.
Говорим си means we're talking to each other.
Yes, of course, that's quite expected. :)
Maybe use "говорить друг другу" is better?
The default reciprocal construction would work indeed, of course (though говорить друг другу is basically "to say to each other (some things)"; as far as talking is concerned, it'd be говорить друг с другом).
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Си and се can both be reflexive particles, си can also be possessive (short for свой/своя/свое/свои; it isn't declinable), си is also short for на себе си (dative case се). Се is generally used with transitive verbs to make them intransitive, create passive voice constructions and what have you, cи is used when the verb also ''takes'' an object/ is followed by it.

Мия чиниите. - I wash the dishes

Мия се. - I wash myself

Мия си косата. = Мия косата си. = Мия своята коса. - I'm washing my hair.
Now, in this case it's overlapping with the possessive си; there is a strong tendency to group it with the verb, and not the noun, this is not wrong per se and it doesn't alter the meaning, though it does lead to peculiar repetitions in sentences like се-си, си-си and the like.

Обличам се. - I dress myself.
Обличам си дрехите. = Обличам дрехите си. = Обличма своите дрехи. - I put on my clothes...=I dress myself.

Разбери се с жена си. - Come to an understanding with your wife./Work through sth. with your wife. (end a feud)

Не си си оправил стаята!? =Не си оправил стаята си!? = Не си оправил своята стая!? - You've not cleaned your room!?
About now it's probably worth mentioning that си the particle also overlaps with си the auxiliary verb. Not confusing at all, I know.

Направи си сам - Do it yourself (DIY)

Давам си време. - I give myself time// lit. I give time to myself.

Пилея си времето = Пилея времето си = Пилея своето време - I waste my time
Again, overlapping with the possessive.

You can kind of tell if it's a possessive particle or reflexive particle in the dative if the object is defined.*

Also if it still makes sense with another pronoun in the dative.
Правя си услуга, като не пуша. - I'm doing myself a favor by not smoking.
Правя ти услуга - I'm doing you a favor. literally to you
Правя им услуга - I'm doing them a favor. literally to them

Правя си торта. =/= Правя си тортата. = Правя тортата си. = Правя своята торта. - I make cake for myself =/= I make my cake/my own cake (as opposed to somebody else's cake).

Давам си времето на фирмата = Давам времето си на фирмата = Давам своето време на формата - I give my time to the company.

*Of course, there are exceptions.

*Давам си времето, което ми е нужно - I give to myself the time which I need// "давам времето си което... etc." doesn't work in this sense, because in this case it's actually reflexive.

*Пилея си време - Just waistin' my time (the noun isn't defined)
This sound odd but works because the ethic dative (also) is used very frequently in Bulgarian, colloquially at least.
Блея си/ Стоя си - To daydream/To sit around. These are probably better examples of ethic dative use. In such cases it's usually better not to have an object or anything.
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