Talk:Pavel Durov

@ASpacemanFalls: I saw your edit summary where you said that he is notable for Telegram, but he became notable in the first place because of VK, where he was often called "Mark Zuckerberg of Russia". So I do not think "Russian" can be removed here as a result. Of course Telegram came after exile so perhaps something else can be added here, like UAE if it is relevant. Mellk (talk) 23:36, 25 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

It's been 8 years since he left VK though and, even looking at the page, it's a smaller paragraph, with the dismissal itself taking up more space. I think most people globally know him only thanks to Telegram, though I admit it might be my bias as I never really heard of VK before starting to use Telegram. Plus, there are multiple references to him being Russian, in his infobox in particular. But the current and, thus, most relevant status, is of a UAE citizen and resident. VK itself ran for 8 years, so at this point he's been out of it longer than he was "in" it. Does my logic make sense? ASpacemanFalls (talk) 09:47, 26 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

I understand where you are getting at, however there is MOS:CONTEXTBIO, and VK is what made him notable and it is relevant to his notability, examples . He is still a Russian national, and I would imagine "Russian-born" would still be included if this was disregarded. Mellk (talk) 14:08, 26 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

All but one of those are quite old and the new one talks specifically about Telegram and its importance, which to me just gives more credence to the argument that Telegram is the main reason this guy is relevant at the moment. Ten years ago it was a different story, sure, but time has passed. MOS:CONTEXTBIO clearly states to list current residency and citizenship, which would be UAE in this case. Considering he has now ran to (similarly?) popular social network-type things, I think it's reasonable to focus on the one that he still runs, thus landing on a UAE-in-lead decision on my part. ASpacemanFalls (talk) 23:54, 26 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

Where in the MOS does it say that we should only focus on current activities? It does say: The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. And as mentioned, he is still a Russian national. The Guardian article still refers to him being called as the "Russian Mark Zuckerberg" and mentions his founding of VK. Even if you still disagree and that we should only think about Telegram, it does say previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. In this case, even if he was no longer a Russian national, it would still be relevant. Now, I would not oppose mentioning current permanent residency alongside this. Mellk (talk) 05:16, 27 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

It also says In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident. Durov is not a resident of Russia any longer, even if he still holds the citizenship. For the UAE, he's both a resident and a citizen and it's where his current project gained notoriety. VK is no longer his claim to fame. If I ask a passerby on the street, they won't know what VK is, though I understand it's a different matter from someone from Russia and that general region. There are similarly articles about Telegram that make no mention of VK, even when mentioning Durov: , , . Mentioning that he was born in Russia is okay, certainly, but the lead spotlighting VK and Russia when these are more related to his past is a bit of a misrepresentation, in my opinion, of course. ASpacemanFalls (talk) 09:12, 27 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

I am OK with adding onto "Russian" or "Russian-born", but it is tricky because he only became an Emirati citizen in 2021, according to this article. And it also states that he obtained Saint Kitts and Nevis citizenship after he left Russia, however Telegram was launched in 2013 while he was still in Russia (of course it was years later that it became very popular). Mellk (talk) 14:14, 27 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

He, and the app that he's famous for, were based in Dubai for nearly a decade now, overtaking his tenure at VK. Besides, VK is now a completely different entity and owned by different company (state-owned?), meaning that it's barely relevant to his page at this point. It's like calling Elon Musk a South African entrepreneur - more of a technicality than a representative picture of him. Seeing as Telegram is regularly in the top 10 most downloaded apps, it's pretty clear that it's surpassed any level of notoriety that VK, a rather local thing, had, leading me to conclude that Telegram's the main claim to fame for this guy. The lead isn't meant to be a historical record, it's a summary of what makes someone notable (see MOS:FIRSTBIO), and in this case it's the UAE-based app that comes attached with a UAE residency and citizenship.

I've edited the lead to include "Russian-born" and Emirati, which I believe addresses your argument too. ASpacemanFalls (talk) 15:55, 27 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

I disagree with that comparison because Musk became notable long after he left South Africa. Durov became notable when he was in Russia. Notice how in the MOS (as you linked MOS:FIRSTBIO) for context it refers to activities that made the person notable, it is not only about current activities. VK made him notable, otherwise there would not have been lots of Western media coverage on him before Telegram became a thing. As notability is based on RS, if you personally were unaware of Durov before Telegram, I'm sorry but it is not relevant here. Mellk (talk) 16:59, 27 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

VK made him notable in Russia but not worldwide. I understand your desire, as a Russian, to claim him for Russia, but Telegram is the more popular of the two projects and has garnered that popularity not based on prior work but based on its own merits. His tenure at VK was mostly reported on in terms of money made and his stake being sold. Telegram is getting nearly daily coverage for a variety of reasons, both good and bad. I don't see how an honest comparison can be drawn between the two. Either way, the edit's been made and I believe the discussion (at least one that pertains to it) has run its course. ASpacemanFalls (talk) 18:03, 27 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

VK made him notable in Russia but not worldwide. Does WP:N work this way? Also, this is not about my personal opinions, this is about policies. Regards. Mellk (talk) 11:35, 28 May 2022 (UTC) Reply

According to the context of that page, I believe rather that Durov should be described as Emirati. Note that MOS:BiographyContext clearly notes that "In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable."

Durov is certainly not 'notable mainly for past events', but rather current events. As such, his Emirati residency and citizenship is most notable. I think there is an argument to perhaps say Emirati and French, as his French citizenship is also very relevant given current events.

Furthermore, when Durov was permitted to travel from France following his 2024 detainment, he was only permitted to visit the UAE, where he is a resident, and not Russia. FebruaryThirtieth (talk) 02:37, 2 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

I think you have misunderstood this. He is currently a Russian national and we are not supposed to include the list of citizenships in the opening. There are plenty of notable people who have acquired citizenships in other countries and we do not mention them in the opening. You say his Emirati residency and citizenship is most notable but is this based on the sources or personal opinion? I don't think there are any good sources that simply describe him as Emirati. Mellk (talk) 05:28, 8 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

MOS:CONTEXTBIO explains "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the opening paragraph unless relevant to the subject's notability."

Durov received Emirati citizenship in 2021 and was residing in the UAE even before then. Telegram, his current and largest project, is also headquartered in the UAE. He does not currently reside in Russia (and seemingly hasn't for over a decade) and also doesn't have any projects or business interests based in Russia.

Along with the other rule that I quoted, "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable."

That would again give credence to putting Emirati here, as Durov currently resides in the UAE, and has since 2017. Durov is certainly more notable for current events, rather than past ones, as Telegram is a significantly larger and more global application than his earlier company VK. As such, according to the rules above, if any nationality is to be attributed in the opening line, it should be Emirati. FebruaryThirtieth (talk) 05:52, 8 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

Again, he is currently a Russian national. There are plenty of Russian figures who left the country and acquired citizenship in another country (for example Arkady Volozh) but that does not mean we should suddenly calling them Israeli or Maltese for example because this is highly misleading.

Are there any decent sources that describe him as simply Emirati and not Russian or Russian-born? I think it is obvious that his Russian background is relevant to his notability and this is reflected in the sources. Mellk (talk) 06:03, 8 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

Can you also please self-revert until there is clear consensus to change this to "Emirati"? Thanks. Mellk (talk) 06:05, 8 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

It's not clear based on the sources you linked (or of sources in general) whether their use of the basic descriptor "Russian" is used to describe his nationality or his ethnicity. For example, the BBC source you linked describes him as "Russian", yet specifically notes his citizenships in the UAE and France, with no reference to Russian citizenship. Most likely, the use of "Russian" by journalists as a descriptor is in reference to Durov's ethnicity.

Reputable sources do describe Durov as Emirati, such as 1 2 3 while others note his French and Emirati citizenships. 4 5 6. FebruaryThirtieth (talk) 06:29, 8 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

All of these sources mention his Russian background, and yes, they mention the other citizenships since in this context it is relevant (because of his arrest in France). This has nothing to do with ethnicity and such news sources almost never refer to someone by ethnicity (except in very exceptional circumstances) because there are a lot of problems with this. Mellk (talk) 06:46, 8 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

Hello ! I did created a similar topic named "Citizenship of "Pavel Durov" in the lead of the article. This situation is so particular that I believe that the better is the next. Don't mention any citizenship in the lead.

Read my message published on "FEB/05/2026" at "12:40 UTC". Extract of this message "Do we have to consider that "Pavel Durov" is notable mainly for past events ?" I think that an answer to this question is essential to determine which citizenship put if we put one.

Concerning "MOS:NATIONALITY" for this case. This is a guideline and I think that we can apply "WP:GUIDES".

We can read "Guidelines are sets of best practices supported by consensus. Editors should attempt to follow guidelines, though they are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply. Guideline pages can be found in Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines and Category:Wikipedia guidelines. For summaries of key guidelines, see List of guidelines."

I did underlined what we could do. I think that an occasional exception may apply. I suggest that we don't mention any citizenship.

I think that try to determine what could be written in the lead is going to be an endless debate. Anatole-berthe (talk) 12:12, 8 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

I agree, and think the case of Pavel Durov is very similar to that of Elon Musk, which MOS:NATIONALITY cites as having a consensus not to include nationality in the opening line, FebruaryThirtieth (talk) 17:49, 8 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

The nationality is omitted in controversial or unclear cases. If all the sources provided here have referred to him as Russian/Russian-born, then how is this controversial or unclear? But I would suggest to restore the status quo and bring this to a noticeboard first for wider input (say WP:BLPN). Mellk (talk) 17:53, 8 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

These are mentioned in the infobox, has he renounced them, no source is being referred.

• Russian (1991–2015)
• Kittitian (2015–2021)

192.89.123.43 (talk) 11:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC) Reply

It's very unlikely that an individual would renounce these two citizenships, especially within its circumstances. Although it's very likely that Pavel Durov it's only using the French and Emirati Passport right now FaDarW (talk) 18:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Reply

Hello ! I'd like to translate a part from the article in French about the subject.
I'm referring to the version dated "MAY/21/2025" at "16:52 UTC".

The French version of the article is there if you want to read the current version : "fr:Pavel Dourov".

I'd like to translate the part named "Controverse" but I don't know where I can put that for the version in English.
I don't know if it's better to put that in the subsection "Telegram" in the section "Career" or in another place of this article. Anatole-berthe (talk) 20:50, 23 May 2025 (UTC) Reply

I do not think it makes sense to mention Telegram's potential security flaws/concerns in this article, unless it directly concerns Durov himself. There is an entire section dedicated to this on the other article. This article is Durov's biography. If we look at how reliable secondary sources reported this, The Moscow Times for example only mentions Durov as the founder. Tagging as undue for now. Mellk (talk) 08:56, 23 June 2025 (UTC) Reply

The removed part on the next "edit " wasn't yet placed on the article "Telegram (software)".

On this thread , there was only one participant (The creator of this thread) before that I wrote the message you're reading.

Therefore , it does seems that nearly no editors are interested concerning this editing question.

For this reason , I think that it's unuseful to look for an explicit consensus concerning this editing question.

Before the delete made by "Melik". This part stayed nearly one month. Therefore , I think that there are not even an implicit consensus between editors.

Two people (Me and Melik) have an opposing opinion concerning this editing question.

See "there " and "there ".

As I consider that there are not an explicit or an implicit consensus.

As I think that reach any form of consensus could be impossible.

I apply "WP:DROPTHESTICK" concerning the article "Pavel Durov".

I apply the proposition of "Melik" even if I'm not in favor of it.
Anatole-berthe (talk) 05:56, 21 July 2025 (UTC) Reply

The relevant policy is WP:ONUS. Mellk (talk) 05:59, 21 July 2025 (UTC) Reply

The work was done "there ". Anatole-berthe (talk) 06:31, 21 July 2025 (UTC) Reply

Hello ! I read the lead of the article. The version since JAN/30/2026 at 18:56 UTC.
We can read that he's a Russian entrepreneur. This is true accorded to "Wikipedia:Verifiability".
This person is also a citizen of Saint Kitts and Nevis , United Arab Emirates , France.

This individual is the holder of 4 citizenship. All of his citizenship known publically are mentionned in the infobox. Therefore , I don't think that it is necessary to mention his Russian citizenship in the lead.

In "MOS:NATIONALITY". We can read , "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident;".
Where does he live ? Accorded to sources , he is living between France and United Arab Emirates. He's the holder of 4 citizenship.
So , use the criterias of current citizenship and permanent residency would be too long to write. He live in countries where he's a national. Therefore , he's not a permanent resident in those places if a permanent residence = Place where someone live without being a national.

We can also read "or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable. (For guidance on historic place names versus modern-day one, see WP:Naming conventions (geographic names) § Use modern names.)"
Do we have to consider that "Pavel Durov" is notable mainly for past events ? Also , this part in "MOS:NATIONALITY" seems to refer implicitly to people who aren't alive but he's alive.
At which approximate date he did became notable accorded to "Wikipedia:Notability (people)" as written now ? Anatole-berthe (talk) 12:40, 5 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

He is a Russian national and he became notable for founding VK while in Russia, so I do not see any issue with the current wording. It is true that he has not lived in Russia for many years now and has distanced himself from Russia, but he is still a Russian national and sources typically refer to him as Russian or Russian-born and not by any of the other citizenships he acquired. We could say "Russian-born" instead since I have seen some sources use this instead. Mellk (talk) 12:56, 5 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

If we use the word "notable" in the common sense of this word. We agree that he became notable for founding "VK" while he was in Russia. I think that it is obvious.

If we use the word in the sense accorded to "Wikipedia:Notability (people)" as written now. I don't know when he became notable.

Use the term "Russian-born". Why not ? For me , it does seems to be an excellent compromise related to "MOS:NATIONALITY" and "Wikipedia:Notability (people)".

As I don't know when he became notable. I don't know if we can put "Russian" in the lead accorded to "MOS:NATIONALITY".

I would prefer that we don't put anything in the lead related to citizenship. "Russian-born" is an excellent compromise even if it is already indicated that he's born in Russia. If the term "Russia-born" means that he was a Russian citizen when he was born , it is indirectly true (Russia is the continuator state of USSR) but I think that it is useless because of the infobox. If the term "Russian-born" refer only to a birth in Russia. It is useless because the place of birth is wrote in the lead. Anatole-berthe (talk) 23:14, 5 February 2026 (UTC) Reply

. Nakonana (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2026 (UTC) Reply