Add official Cyrillic transliteration for our name #90

erkinalp commented 2022年12月31日 09:37:19 +01:00

The Esperanto name forĝejo is closest to the East Slavic форджею in pronunciation (not форджеё, because ё is stress-attracting) . And therefore I propose форджею as the official Cyrillic variant of our name.

The Esperanto name forĝejo is closest to the East Slavic форджею in pronunciation (not форджеё, because ё is stress-attracting) . And therefore I propose форджею as the official Cyrillic variant of our name.

Gusted commented 2023年01月02日 18:54:54 +01:00

I might be out of the loop here, but if we agree to this, what would change? A PR to add this in the documentation?

I might be out of the loop here, but if we agree to this, what would change? A PR to add this in the documentation?

gapodo commented 2023年01月02日 20:45:40 +01:00

I'm not sure it makes sense to reansliterate a basically brand name into another system. Does McDonalds do it? (I know this question is somewhat provocative, but I'm not sure it makes sense to have forgejo not be forgejo depending on the system of writing and hope to have a well known example... It would at least make searches a pain...)

I'm not sure it makes sense to reansliterate a basically brand name into another system. Does McDonalds do it? (I know this question is somewhat provocative, but I'm not sure it makes sense to have forgejo not be forgejo depending on the system of writing and hope to have a well known example... It would at least make searches a pain...)

fsologureng commented 2023年01月03日 02:41:35 +01:00

As far as I understand, names shouldn't be translated.

As far as I understand, names shouldn't be translated.

oliverpool commented 2023年01月03日 07:46:59 +01:00

Since I don't know any non-latin based language I would invert the problem: if there was a product with the official name "форджею", how would I like to call it in English environment?

I personally think I would use the official name once (форджею) and the a translitaration of it afterwards (forgejo).
(I can only find 3 characters on my keyboard, no idea how to type the other 4 ;)

Instead of "official transliteration", it could maybe called "recommended transliteration"?

Does it belong to a11y (accessibility)?

Since I don't know any non-latin based language I would invert the problem: if there was a product with the official name "форджею", how would I like to call it in English environment? I personally think I would use the official name once (форджею) and the a translitaration of it afterwards (forgejo). (I can only find 3 characters on my keyboard, no idea how to type the other 4 ;) Instead of "official transliteration", it could maybe called "recommended transliteration"? Does it belong to a11y (accessibility)?

caesar commented 2023年01月03日 08:42:32 +01:00

if we agree to this, what would change? A PR to add this in the documentation?

I assume it's for use in any localisations into languages using Cyrillic script.

Does McDonalds do it?

Yes.

McDonald's logo in Russian

But I should note that the current localisations do not transliterate Gitea.

It would at least make searches a pain...)

Maybe it would make it easier for people who don't use Latin keyboards 😅
I don't know, I guess input from native speakers of such languages is required to know what they find most natural / comfortable / normal.

Does it belong to a11y (accessibility)?

It belongs to i18n, but maybe that's a subset of a11y? 🤔

> if we agree to this, what would change? A PR to add this in the documentation? I assume it's for use in any localisations into languages using Cyrillic script. > Does McDonalds do it? Yes. <img src="https://codeberg.org/attachments/e6abe79f-be6a-42d8-a00f-bb97529b83c2" width="150" alt="McDonald's logo in Russian" /> But I should note that the current localisations do *not* transliterate `Gitea`. > It would at least make searches a pain...) Maybe it would make it easier for people who don't use Latin keyboards 😅 I don't know, I guess input from native speakers of such languages is required to know what they find most natural / comfortable / normal. > Does it belong to a11y (accessibility)? It belongs to i18n, but maybe that's a subset of a11y? 🤔

tallship commented 2023年01月10日 10:28:48 +01:00

@oliverpool

Since I don't know any non-latin based language I would invert the problem: if there was a product with the official name "форджею", how would I like to call it in English environment?

That's an interesting perspective to investigate.

Example:

• Name = Аэрофло́т

• English translation = "air fleet"

• English spelling = Aeroflot

@erkinalp : Is the English spelling a transliteration? If not, what is the correct terminology for that construct of the English spelling?

Also, can you provide a standard .mp3 file or equivalent audio of Аэрофло́т being pronounced in native Russian so that we may better understand how all of this affects meaning and pronunciation?

@oliverpool >Since I don't know any non-latin based language I would invert the problem: if there was a product with the official name "форджею", how would I like to call it in English environment? > > That's an interesting perspective to investigate. ### Example: * Name = Аэрофло́т * English translation = "air fleet" * English spelling = Aeroflot @erkinalp : Is the English spelling a transliteration? If not, what is the correct terminology for that construct of the English spelling? Also, can you provide a standard .mp3 file or equivalent audio of **Аэрофло́т** being pronounced in native Russian so that we may better understand how all of this affects meaning and pronunciation?

erkinalp commented 2023年01月10日 10:29:29 +01:00

Yes, "Aeroflot" is the transliteration for Аэрофло́т.

Yes, "Aeroflot" is the transliteration for Аэрофло́т.

tallship commented 2023年01月10日 10:53:17 +01:00

@erkinalp

Yes, "Aeroflot" is the transliteration for Аэрофло́т.

Awesome!

I thought so but I wasn't sure and wanted to be accurate.

Here's how we pronounce Aeroflot in English. How is Аэрофло́т pronounced in Russian?

@erkinalp >Yes, "Aeroflot" is the transliteration for Аэрофло́т. Awesome! I thought so but I wasn't sure and wanted to be accurate. Here's how we pronounce Aeroflot in English. How is Аэрофло́т pronounced in Russian?

erkinalp commented 2023年01月10日 10:56:04 +01:00

In many languages, words are inflected according to case and number, hence transliteration is very central.

In many languages, words are inflected according to case and number, hence transliteration is very central.

tallship commented 2023年01月10日 11:20:06 +01:00

@erkinalp

In many languages, words are inflected according to case and number, hence transliteration is very central.

Okay...

So what I'm thinking you're saying is that the .ogg file is the correct pronunciation for both Аэрофло́т and Aeroflot (or at least, very close to being exactly the same)?

If so, then...

I'm also thinking that, looking into the future, someone might end up deploying a mirror of Forgejo that federates with https://Codeberg.org/forgejo/forgejo say, on another Forgejo server at:

https://SLD.TLD/форджею/форджею

This would make it more convenient and familiar to people using Eastern Slavic, Etc., maybe even having the i18n translation of the docs?

Or something similar to facilitate those users.

If there is a real need for this type of native support in some language bases (and forgive my terminology, as I'm not a linguist), then it may indeed be prudent for us to have actual transliterations of "Forĝejo" (The Esperanto word for forge) in a few Major languages.

@erkinalp >In many languages, words are inflected according to case and number, hence transliteration is very central. Okay... So what I'm thinking you're saying is that the .ogg file is the correct pronunciation for both Аэрофло́т and Aeroflot (or at least, very close to being exactly the same)? ### If so, then... I'm also thinking that, looking into the future, someone might end up deploying a mirror of Forgejo that federates with https://Codeberg.org/forgejo/forgejo say, on another Forgejo server at: https://SLD.TLD/форджею/форджею This would make it more convenient and familiar to people using Eastern Slavic, Etc., maybe even having the i18n translation of the docs? Or something similar to facilitate those users. If there is a real need for this type of native support in some language bases (and forgive my terminology, as I'm not a linguist), then it may indeed be prudent for us to have actual transliterations of **"Forĝejo"** (The Esperanto word for forge) in a few *Major* languages.

tallship commented 2023年01月10日 11:29:36 +01:00

Just to be sure we're on the same track @erkinalp , the one correct, and official way to pronounce "Forgejo" is, "Forĝejo", as in our official pronunciation .m4a file attached.

So if the correct way to pronounce форджею is the same as our official pronunciation file (Forĝejo), then I don't personally see any major roadblocks to drafting an official agreement doc and publishing it via a merge if that is correctly the particular case here.

Considering the proposal is met favorably with the rest of the community and the matter of the transliteration and pronunciation are indeed that straight forward.

Just to be sure we're on the same track @erkinalp , the one correct, and official way to pronounce "Forgejo" is, **"Forĝejo"**, as in our official pronunciation .m4a file attached. So if the correct way to pronounce форджею is the same as our official pronunciation file (Forĝejo), then I don't personally see any major roadblocks to drafting an official agreement doc and publishing it via a merge if that is correctly the particular case here. Considering the proposal is met favorably with the rest of the community and the matter of the transliteration and pronunciation are indeed that straight forward.

Aminda commented 2023年01月19日 12:40:01 +01:00

I would like there being an official way of writing Forgejo in Cyrillic as the name comes from Esperanto and it's entirely permitted to write Esperanto using Cyrillic alphabet. I think it could even be argued that it's easier to type Esperanto in Cyrillic than Latin alphabet with how the hatted characters have became dead keys and often difficult to type out of the box.

• https://omniglot.com/conscripts/esperantocyrillic.htm

I think it's also worth noting that Russian isn't the only language using the cyrillic alphabet.

I don't know what would actually change with having an official way of writing the name though.

I would like there being an official way of writing Forgejo in Cyrillic as the name comes from Esperanto and it's entirely permitted to write Esperanto using Cyrillic alphabet. I think it could even be argued that it's easier to type Esperanto in Cyrillic than Latin alphabet with how the hatted characters have became dead keys and often difficult to type out of the box. * https://omniglot.com/conscripts/esperantocyrillic.htm I think it's also worth noting that Russian isn't the only language using the cyrillic alphabet. I don't know what would actually change with having an official way of writing the name though.

rdwz commented 2023年01月20日 07:33:06 +01:00

Spoiler: форгеё 👈
tldr; translit = cyrilic/latin char map table

Transliteration is not about pronunciation, but a method meant to convert characters in both directions. For example a yandex search for форджею would get you only useless results for fordzheju. And that's maybe to most important use case of translit, to know what keys to press, when you would like to type latin words on a cyrilic keyboard and vice versa.

But of course there are exceptions.. in favour of capitalism the mentioned 'Макдоналдс' or Makdonalds does in indeed give a little help with pronounciation.
Fun fact: unofficial slangs names (削除) are (削除ここまで) were Makdachka or Makduck 😅

WHAT IS TRANSLITERATION?
The word Transliteration comes from Latin transliteratus (trans- "across" + littera "letter"). Transliteration is the method of representing letters or words of one alphabet in the characters of another alphabet or script.

A special case, when transliteration applied to Russian letters to represent them in Latin characters is called Translit. Initially translit was applied only within Russian speaking community (known as "Russian translit") to transliterate Cyrillic texts and later was widely applied to many other Non-Latin languages and alphabets.

https://translit.cc/

GOST 7.79-2000 is a standard for transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin script for use on the internet, for speakers of languages that are normally written in Cyrillic script but who do not have access to a Cyrillic keyboard.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/GOST_7.79-2000

Spoiler: `форгеё` 👈 tldr; translit = cyrilic/latin char map table Transliteration is not about pronunciation, but a method meant to convert characters in both directions. For example a yandex search for `форджею` would get you only useless results for `fordzheju`. And that's maybe to most important use case of translit, to know what keys to press, when you would like to type latin words on a cyrilic keyboard and vice versa. But of course there are exceptions.. in favour of capitalism the mentioned 'Макдоналдс' or `Makdonalds` does in indeed give a little help with pronounciation. Fun fact: unofficial slangs names ~~are~~ were `Makdachka` or `Makduck` 😅 > WHAT IS TRANSLITERATION? > The word Transliteration comes from Latin transliteratus (trans- "across" + littera "letter"). Transliteration is the method of representing letters or words of one alphabet in the characters of another alphabet or script. > > A special case, when transliteration applied to Russian letters to represent them in Latin characters is called Translit. Initially translit was applied only within Russian speaking community (known as "Russian translit") to transliterate Cyrillic texts and later was widely applied to many other Non-Latin languages and alphabets. https://translit.cc/ > GOST 7.79-2000 is a standard for transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin script for use on the internet, for speakers of languages that are normally written in Cyrillic script but who do not have access to a Cyrillic keyboard. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/GOST_7.79-2000

erkinalp commented 2023年01月20日 09:53:28 +01:00

форджею / "fordzheju"

Which is the Russian/Ukrainian word for forge 🎉

форджею / "fordzheju" Which is the Russian/Ukrainian word for forge 🎉

erkinalp commented 2023年01月20日 10:00:40 +01:00

Макдоналдс

Which is indeed how you would write Mac Donalds in Cyrillic. Mc. is not a word. It is an abbreviation of Mac.

> Макдоналдс Which is indeed how you would write Mac Donalds in Cyrillic. Mc. is not a word. It is an abbreviation of Mac.

das-g commented 2023年02月10日 00:32:33 +01:00

Transliterating "forĝejo" according to Esperanto→Cyrillic conventions

As

• the brand name "forgejo" comes from the Esperanto word "forĝejo"
  and as
• the brand name's official pronunciation is identical to the Esperanto pronunciation of that Esperanto word (i.e., /forˈd͡ʒe.jo/, not /forˈge.jo/),

it seems appropriate to me

• to use the existing transliteration conventions for Esperanto to Cyrillic script,
  and
• to apply them to the original "forĝejo" rather than to the ASCII-fied version "forgejo" used as the actual brand name AFAIK for ease-of-typing and ease-of-searching reasons (both of which are IMO non-relevant for a transliteration, as long as that transliteration is easy to type in the target writing system)

Applying the transliteration mapping from here (whether or not that is the most common convention for Esperanto-to-Cyrillic transliteration would have to be verified), this would yield:

lower case

f	o	r	ĝ	e	j	o
ф	о	р	џ	е	ј	о

→ форџејо

sentence case

F	o	r	ĝ	e	j	o
Ф	о	р	џ	е	ј	о

→ Форџејо

all uppercase

F	O	R	Ĝ	E	J	O
Ф	О	Р	Џ	Е	Ј	О

→ ФОРЏEЈО

Transliterating "forgejo" according to Esperanto→Cyrillic conventions

Alternatively, one could treat "forgejo", as if it were an Esperanto word:

lower case

f	o	r	g	e	j	o
ф	о	р	г	е	ј	о

→ форгејо

sentence case

F	o	r	g	e	j	o
Ф	о	р	г	е	ј	о

→ Форгејо

all uppercase

F	O	R	Ĝ	E	J	O
Ф	О	Р	Г	Е	Ј	О

→ ФОРГEЈО

---

Disclaimer: While I do know Esperanto, I don't know the conventions in Cyrillic script, so I don't actually know whether it makes sense to adopt capitalization categories like that.

## Transliterating "forĝejo" according to Esperanto→Cyrillic conventions As - the brand name "forgejo" comes from the Esperanto word "forĝejo" *and* as - the brand name's official pronunciation is identical to the Esperanto pronunciation of that Esperanto word (i.e., /forˈ**d͡ʒ**e.jo/, *not* /forˈ**g**e.jo/), it seems appropriate to me - to use the existing transliteration conventions for Esperanto to Cyrillic script, and - to apply them to the original "for**ĝ**ejo" rather than to the ASCII-fied version "for**g**ejo" used as the actual brand name AFAIK for ease-of-typing and ease-of-searching reasons (both of which are IMO non-relevant for a transliteration, as long as that transliteration is easy to type in the target writing system) Applying the transliteration mapping from [here](https://omniglot.com/conscripts/esperantocyrillic.htm) (whether or not that is the most common convention for Esperanto-to-Cyrillic transliteration would have to be verified), this would yield: ### lower case | f | o | r | ĝ | e | j | o | |---|---|---|---|---|---|---| | ф | о | р | џ | е | ј | о | → **форџејо** ### sentence case | F | o | r | ĝ | e | j | o | |---|---|---|---|---|---|---| | Ф | о | р | џ | е | ј | о | → **Форџејо** ### all uppercase | F | O | R | Ĝ | E | J | O | |---|---|---|---|---|---|---| | Ф | О | Р | Џ | Е | Ј | О | → **ФОРЏEЈО** ## Transliterating "forgejo" according to Esperanto→Cyrillic conventions Alternatively, one could treat "for**g**ejo", as if it were an Esperanto word: ### lower case | f | o | r | g | e | j | o | |---|---|---|---|---|---|---| | ф | о | р | г | е | ј | о | → **форгејо** ### sentence case | F | o | r | g | e | j | o | |---|---|---|---|---|---|---| | Ф | о | р | г | е | ј | о | → **Форгејо** ### all uppercase | F | O | R | Ĝ | E | J | O | |---|---|---|---|---|---|---| | Ф | О | Р | Г | Е | Ј | О | → **ФОРГEЈО** --- Disclaimer: While I do know Esperanto, I don't know the conventions in Cyrillic script, so I don't actually know whether it makes sense to adopt capitalization categories like that.

tallship commented 2023年02月10日 05:35:43 +01:00

Transliteration of Forĝejo looks great!

Thank you! 👍

Transliteration of Forĝejo looks great! Thank you! 👍

Ryuno-Ki commented 2023年02月17日 20:27:52 +01:00

This issue is somewhat related to forgejo/website#4

If we display Cyrillic, we can display Hindi (if @realaravinth agrees) as well 😻

This issue is somewhat related to https://codeberg.org/forgejo/website/issues/4 If we display Cyrillic, we can display Hindi (if @realaravinth agrees) as well 😻

realaravinth commented 2023年02月17日 21:21:14 +01:00

re:transliteration

It's very common for brands to transliterate into the regional language.

The majority of developers in India speak and read English, so "Forgejo" should work but if we are going to translate to Hindi and Tamil, then transliterating the name would also be nice.

Forgejo is "फोर्जेहो" in Hindi (I'll have to ask my mum for the Tamil equivalent) 😅

re:transliteration It's very common for brands to transliterate into the regional language. The majority of developers in India speak and read English, so "Forgejo" should work but if we are going to translate to Hindi and Tamil, then transliterating the name would also be nice. Forgejo is "फोर्जेहो" in Hindi (I'll have to ask my mum for the Tamil equivalent) 😅

das-g commented 2023年02月17日 21:48:28 +01:00

Forgejo is "फोर्जेहो" in Hindi

Isn't the "r" sound missing from that transliteration? (Note that the "r" in Esperanto and in the official pronunciation of "Forgejo" isn't near-silent, other than the "r" in the English "forge" might be depending on dialect.)

> Forgejo is "फोर्जेहो" in Hindi Isn't the "r" sound missing from that transliteration? (Note that the "r" in Esperanto and in the [official pronunciation of "Forgejo"](https://forgejo.org/faq/#where-does-the-name-come-from) isn't near-silent, other than the "r" in the English "forge" might be depending on dialect.)