[Antennas] Antennas Digest, Vol 86, Issue 1

Wed Mar 2 00:43:10 EST 2011

I experienced that immediately after (April!) rains showers, I could work 
Florida and other Southern states on 40 meters AM from NYC, in mid 
afternoon, running about 70 Watts -- the antenna was a 1/4 vertical using a 
wire mesh fence as ground counterpoise.
I could not do this in dry weather. Sunspot activity was also very favorable 
in the late 50's.
Since the theoretical impedance of an ideal GP is 35 ohms, what about using 
two parallel 70 ohm
cables? But I suppose 50 ohms approaches the actual impedance of non-ideal 
GP's. By adjusting the angle of the radials
with respect to the horizontal, 50 ohms can be achieved, assuming your feed 
point height and physical environment makes this a practical possibility -- 
not often the case on the lower bands.
Henry oz3o n2nr
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <antennas-request at mailman.qth.net>
To: <antennas at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 12:08 AM
Subject: Antennas Digest, Vol 86, Issue 1
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>>> Today's Topics:
>> 1. Antenna SWR (David C. Hallam)
> 2. Re: Antenna SWR (N9QZD)
> 3. Re: Antenna SWR (David C. Hallam)
> 4. Re: Antenna SWR (Ron Youvan)
> 5. Re: Antenna SWR (David C. Hallam)
> 6. Re: Antenna SWR (David C. Hallam)
> 7. Antenna SWR (Don Keith)
> 8. Re: Antenna SWR (David C. Hallam)
> 9. Re: Antenna SWR (Jay Eimer)
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Message: 1
> Date: 2011年3月01日 12:22:23 -0500
> From: "David C. Hallam" <dhallam at knology.net>
> Subject: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
> To: Antennas <antennas at mailman.qth.net>
> Message-ID: <4D6D2B4F.5090305 at knology.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>> I just got a new play toy, an antenna analyzer, and have taken some SWR
> measurements on my antenna. I have a Butternut HF6V. This morning I
> measured the SWR. Shortly afterward we had a rain storm. Out of
> curiosity I measured the SWR again and found a significant upward change
> on all bands. I am confident there is no water egress at the connection
> of the feed line to 20M 1/4 wave transformer section. All joints on the
> antenna were assembled with Noalox. Maybe there could have been some
> water egress at the connecting lugs of the the 1/4 section on the
> antenna where they connect to the antenna but they appear to be sealed.
>> Should I expect a SWR change just from a wet antenna?
>> -- 
> ?I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as ABC, hold up 
> truth to your eyes.? Thomas Paine, December 23, 1776
>>>> ------------------------------
>> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 17:45:16 +0000
> From: "N9QZD" <n9qzd at spbbs.com>
> Subject: Re: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
> To: "Antennas" <antennas at mailman.qth.net>
> Message-ID:
> <1824931784-1299001518-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-809726295- at bda297.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>> Didn't say how much of a change. Could just be the wet ground under the 
> antenna. Lower ground losses would probably push your swr up.
>> -
> Sent from my BlackBerry!
>> -----Original Message-----
> From: "David C. Hallam" <dhallam at knology.net>
> Sender: antennas-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> Date: 2011年3月01日 12:22:23
> To: Antennas<antennas at mailman.qth.net>
> Reply-To: dhallam at knology.net
> Subject: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
>> I just got a new play toy, an antenna analyzer, and have taken some SWR
> measurements on my antenna. I have a Butternut HF6V. This morning I
> measured the SWR. Shortly afterward we had a rain storm. Out of
> curiosity I measured the SWR again and found a significant upward change
> on all bands. I am confident there is no water egress at the connection
> of the feed line to 20M 1/4 wave transformer section. All joints on the
> antenna were assembled with Noalox. Maybe there could have been some
> water egress at the connecting lugs of the the 1/4 section on the
> antenna where they connect to the antenna but they appear to be sealed.
>> Should I expect a SWR change just from a wet antenna?
>> -- 
> ?I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as ABC, hold up 
> truth to your eyes.? Thomas Paine, December 23, 1776
>> ______________________________________________________________
> Antennas mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/antennas
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Antennas at mailman.qth.net
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> ------------------------------
>> Message: 3
> Date: 2011年3月01日 12:47:56 -0500
> From: "David C. Hallam" <dhallam at knology.net>
> Subject: Re: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
> To: Rick Gouge <rickgouge at shaw.ca>, Antennas
> <antennas at mailman.qth.net>
> Message-ID: <4D6D314C.8010900 at knology.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>> Rick,
>> No, I do not have a lot or ground radials. I have 8 - 60ft radials.
> Unfortunately, with my 1/4 acre lot and trees, I had to put the antenna
> along side the house. 4 radials fan out slightly to the east of the
> antenna and the other 4 fan out to the west. the ones to the west fan
> out more than the easterly ones do as they go out into the back yard.
>> I don't know at what point close spacing negates the effectiveness of
> radials.
>> David
> KW4DH
>> On 3/1/2011 12:29 PM, Rick Gouge wrote:
>> David. Do you have alot of ground radials? the one i have does change
>> alittle as well. I know i need more ground radials Rick VE7RiK
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David C. Hallam"
>> <dhallam at knology.net>
>> To: "Antennas" <antennas at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:22 AM
>> Subject: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
>>>>>> I just got a new play toy, an antenna analyzer, and have taken some SWR
>> measurements on my antenna. I have a Butternut HF6V. This morning I
>> measured the SWR. Shortly afterward we had a rain storm. Out of
>> curiosity I measured the SWR again and found a significant upward change
>> on all bands. I am confident there is no water egress at the connection
>> of the feed line to 20M 1/4 wave transformer section. All joints on the
>> antenna were assembled with Noalox. Maybe there could have been some
>> water egress at the connecting lugs of the the 1/4 section on the
>> antenna where they connect to the antenna but they appear to be sealed.
>>>> Should I expect a SWR change just from a wet antenna?
>>>> -- 
> ?I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as ABC, hold up 
> truth to your eyes.? Thomas Paine, December 23, 1776
>>>> ------------------------------
>> Message: 4
> Date: 2011年3月01日 12:54:47 -0500
> From: Ron Youvan <ka4inm at tampabay.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
> To: a <antennas at mailman.qth.net>
> Message-ID: <4D6D32E7.2030009 at tampabay.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>> David C. Hallam wrote:
>>> I just got a new play toy, an antenna analyzer, and have taken some SWR
>> measurements on my antenna. I have a Butternut HF6V. This morning I
>> measured the SWR. Shortly afterward we had a rain storm. Out of
>> curiosity I measured the SWR again and found a significant upward change
>> on all bands. I am confident there is no water egress at the connection
>> of the feed line to 20M 1/4 wave transformer section. All joints on the
>> antenna were assembled with Noalox. Maybe there could have been some
>> water egress at the connecting lugs of the the 1/4 section on the
>> antenna where they connect to the antenna but they appear to be sealed.
>>> Should I expect a SWR change just from a wet antenna?
>> No, just from the wet counterpoise.
> The next time it is dry measure it and then water the ground and see if
> it changes like it just did.
> -- 
> Ron KA4INM - I'm proud to be Chuck's pop!
>>> ------------------------------
>> Message: 5
> Date: 2011年3月01日 12:58:20 -0500
> From: "David C. Hallam" <dhallam at knology.net>
> Subject: Re: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
> To: antennas at mailman.qth.net, n9qzd at spbbs.com
> Message-ID: <4D6D33BC.3080805 at knology.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>> Oops, wrong table on the before.
>>>>> David
> KW4DH
>> On 3/1/2011 12:45 PM, N9QZD wrote:
>> Didn't say how much of a change. Could just be the wet ground under the 
>> antenna. Lower ground losses would probably push your swr up.
>>>> -
>> Sent from my BlackBerry!
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "David C. Hallam"<dhallam at knology.net>
>> Sender: antennas-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> Date: 2011年3月01日 12:22:23
>> To: Antennas<antennas at mailman.qth.net>
>> Reply-To: dhallam at knology.net
>> Subject: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
>>>> I just got a new play toy, an antenna analyzer, and have taken some SWR
>> measurements on my antenna. I have a Butternut HF6V. This morning I
>> measured the SWR. Shortly afterward we had a rain storm. Out of
>> curiosity I measured the SWR again and found a significant upward change
>> on all bands. I am confident there is no water egress at the connection
>> of the feed line to 20M 1/4 wave transformer section. All joints on the
>> antenna were assembled with Noalox. Maybe there could have been some
>> water egress at the connecting lugs of the the 1/4 section on the
>> antenna where they connect to the antenna but they appear to be sealed.
>>>> Should I expect a SWR change just from a wet antenna?
>>>> -- 
> ?I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as ABC, hold up 
> truth to your eyes.? Thomas Paine, December 23, 1776
>>>> ------------------------------
>> Message: 6
> Date: 2011年3月01日 13:09:54 -0500
> From: "David C. Hallam" <dhallam at knology.net>
> Subject: Re: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
> To: Rick Gouge <rickgouge at shaw.ca>, Antennas
> <antennas at mailman.qth.net>
> Message-ID: <4D6D3672.2040307 at knology.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>> Rick,
>> I live in Clearwater, FL near but not on the Gulf. Our soil is very
> sandy. There is a very thin layer of top soil, then you are into sand.
>> David
> KW4DH
>> On 3/1/2011 1:04 PM, Rick Gouge wrote:
>> As long as the radials do not touch. Plus your 75 ohm feed line should
>> be below the radials as well. I am going to put 35 or 30 foot lenghts
>> fan around the whole antenna. How wet does your ground get? My lawn in
>> very wet so lenghts of the radials do not matter as long as they are
>> all 30 feet or better. Rick VE7RiK
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David C. Hallam"
>> <dhallam at knology.net>
>> To: "Rick Gouge" <rickgouge at shaw.ca>; "Antennas"
>> <antennas at mailman.qth.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
>>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>> No, I do not have a lot or ground radials. I have 8 - 60ft radials.
>>> Unfortunately, with my 1/4 acre lot and trees, I had to put the
>>> antenna along side the house. 4 radials fan out slightly to the east
>>> of the antenna and the other 4 fan out to the west. the ones to the
>>> west fan out more than the easterly ones do as they go out into the
>>> back yard.
>>>>>> I don't know at what point close spacing negates the effectiveness of
>>> radials.
>>>>>> David
>>> KW4DH
>>>>>> On 3/1/2011 12:29 PM, Rick Gouge wrote:
>>>> David. Do you have alot of ground radials? the one i have does
>>>> change alittle as well. I know i need more ground radials Rick VE7RiK
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David C. Hallam"
>>>> <dhallam at knology.net>
>>>> To: "Antennas" <antennas at mailman.qth.net>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:22 AM
>>>> Subject: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just got a new play toy, an antenna analyzer, and have taken some SWR
>>>> measurements on my antenna. I have a Butternut HF6V. This morning I
>>>> measured the SWR. Shortly afterward we had a rain storm. Out of
>>>> curiosity I measured the SWR again and found a significant upward
>>>> change
>>>> on all bands. I am confident there is no water egress at the connection
>>>> of the feed line to 20M 1/4 wave transformer section. All joints on the
>>>> antenna were assembled with Noalox. Maybe there could have been some
>>>> water egress at the connecting lugs of the the 1/4 section on the
>>>> antenna where they connect to the antenna but they appear to be sealed.
>>>>>>>> Should I expect a SWR change just from a wet antenna?
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>> ?I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as ABC, hold
>>> up truth to your eyes.? Thomas Paine, December 23, 1776
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3475 - Release Date: 03/01/11
>>>>>>>>> -- 
> ?I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as ABC, hold up 
> truth to your eyes.? Thomas Paine, December 23, 1776
>>>> ------------------------------
>> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0800 (PST)
> From: Don Keith <n4kc at bellsouth.net>
> Subject: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
> To: Antennas at mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID: <355754.98238.qm at web180312.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>> Same phenomenon that baffles many first-time vertical builders.? The more 
> radials--the better the ground plane--the more the SWR creeps up.? Many 
> just drive a ground rod into the ground since the SWR is better, happily 
> assuming that is the best and most efficient antenna they can get.? Or 
> settle for a couple of ground radials because SWR rises as they add more.
> ?
> I suspect your ground plane is better after the rain.? If the SWR didn't 
> get above 2:1, I would not even worry about it...other than increase the 
> number of radials if you can.
> ?
> 73,
> ?
> Don N4KC
> www.n4kc.com
> www.donkeith.com
> ?
>> ------------------------------
>> Message: 8
> Date: 2011年3月01日 17:45:22 -0500
> From: "David C. Hallam" <dhallam at knology.net>
> Subject: Re: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
> To: Don Keith <n4kc at bellsouth.net>
> Cc: Antennas at mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID: <4D6D7702.4060806 at knology.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>> Don,
>> I guess the SWR table I copied in my posts was stripped out by the
> system as I didn't see then in my email from the reflector. Anyway I am
> using a Kenwood TS-130 transceiver which will start reducing output if
> the SWR goes over 1.5:1. That means an antenna tuner which I don't want
> to mess with.
>> I normally use a Johnson Invader 200/Collins 75S-3 set up. I guess I
> will just have to go back to it. The Invader doesn't care what the SWR
> is. It will load a wet string.
>> David
> KW4DH
>> On 3/1/2011 4:54 PM, Don Keith wrote:
>> Same phenomenon that baffles many first-time vertical builders. The more 
>> radials--the better the ground plane--the more the SWR creeps up. Many 
>> just drive a ground rod into the ground since the SWR is better, happily 
>> assuming that is the best and most efficient antenna they can get. Or 
>> settle for a couple of ground radials because SWR rises as they add more.
>>>> I suspect your ground plane is better after the rain. If the SWR didn't 
>> get above 2:1, I would not even worry about it...other than increase the 
>> number of radials if you can.
>>>> 73,
>>>> Don N4KC
>> www.n4kc.com
>> www.donkeith.com
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Antennas mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/antennas
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Antennas at mailman.qth.net
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> -- 
> ?I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as ABC, hold up 
> truth to your eyes.? Thomas Paine, December 23, 1776
>>>> ------------------------------
>> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 15:08:49 -0800 (PST)
> From: Jay Eimer <ad5pe at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
> To: Antennas at mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID: <570127.9154.qm at web180304.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>> Remember, a "perfect" vertical should have about 35 ohms resistive at 
> resonance, so the SWR will NOT be 1:1, but rather about 1.4:1. If the 
> antenna is tuned to 50 ohm resistive over dry ground, then the ground gets 
> wet (and thus "better") then SWR will climb a little (up to that 1.4:1). 
> The test would be to check the "X" component and see if it's going low. 
> 35 Ohms is the "correct" error - but remember 1.4:1 is also possible at 70 
> ohms - but that would not be logical. Rather it would be a sign of some 
> other problem (like water ingress).
>> 73,
> Jay
> AD5PE
>> --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Don Keith <n4kc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> From: Don Keith <n4kc at bellsouth.net>
>> Subject: [Antennas] Antenna SWR
>> To: Antennas at mailman.qth.net
>> Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 9:54 PM
>> Same phenomenon that baffles many
>> first-time vertical builders.? The more radials--the better
>> the ground plane--the more the SWR creeps up.? Many just
>> drive a ground rod into the ground since the SWR is better,
>> happily assuming that is the best and most efficient antenna
>> they can get.? Or settle for a couple of ground radials
>> because SWR rises as they add more.
>> ?
>> I suspect your ground plane is better after the rain.? If
>> the SWR didn't get above 2:1, I would not even worry about
>> it...other than increase the number of radials if you can.
>> ?
>> 73,
>> ?
>> Don N4KC
>> www.n4kc.com
>> www.donkeith.com
>> ?
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Antennas mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/antennas
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Antennas at mailman.qth.net
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>> ------------------------------
>> ______________________________________________________________
> Antennas mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/antennas
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.html
> Post: mailto:Antennas at mailman.qth.net
>>> End of Antennas Digest, Vol 86, Issue 1
> ***************************************